Sprout Saves Time.

Episode 20

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:00:00] Hi everyone! I'm Dr. Chloe Carmichael, clinical psychologist and author of the book, Nervous Energy: Harness the Power of Your Anxiety. And of course also the host of the High Functioning Hotspot podcast right here. So today's guest is Vanessa Smith Bennett, who has a super interesting story. She actually was a creative director for brands like Coca-Cola. And then decided that that life was kind of burning her out. So she went ahead and became a yoga teacher, which I was actually a yoga teacher before I was a clinical psychologist, so I was super excited for the chance to speak with Vanessa and learn her story and learn just from her process. I often find that by just hearing the stories of high functioning people and their process around the changes that they make in their life can be really illuminating and inspiring to me. Even if I'm not thinking of those particular changes, just hearing their process can be really exciting. So without further ado here is Vanessa Smith Bennett. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:01:03] Hello!

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:01:04] Hi Vanessa! How are you?

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:01:07] I'm okay. How are you? 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:01:08] I am great. Thank you so much for joining me. I like your tattoo. Can I see that? 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:01:20] Oh yeah. It's my ode to Bowie. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:01:22] Awesome. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:01:23] Yeah, I got it the year that he passed away, it was very, very devastating to me. I've been that pretty big Bowie nerd my entire life. It was very sad when we lost him. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:01:34] Yeah. He's a special man. If you don't mind I'm actually just going to dive right in into something I think is kind of special there, which is actually with high-functioning people sometimes it can be hard to believe in things that are in the abstract or things that we can't always see or know or prove. But on the other hand, those can be some of the most powerful things in life. 

So when you said that David Bowie passing off the cuff do you mind sharing, like any beliefs that you have about the afterlife? I know that's a deep place to dive in but since it came up, I'm just curious. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:02:11] Yeah. You know, for me, I remember in my early twenties, I kind of fell off the hole like I was very anti-spiritual. And then when I started doing my own therapy on my own work, I feel like through that, I actually found my way back to my own version of a spiritual path. 

You know, I found yoga and the therapist that I was seeing was a holistic therapist and much more spiritually grounded. She actually has ordained as well. And so it was kind of woven and it was never forced, but it was very woven in, and my yoga practice brought me there. And so for me personally and my background is actually in depth psychology, which is a psychology of the soul.

Carl Jung, who obviously basically is the founder of depth psychology, he practiced from a very spiritual place and was steeped in religion and spirituality. And so for me as an adult now, my personal belief is that you can't extract a full life from a life that includes spirit.

And I think you can take that to me in anything that you want it to mean or what means the most to you or what's fulfilling to you. But when we go so left brain, so logical, so two plus two equals four, we cut out a whole section of our psychology, of our psyche, of our unconscious. That really is meant to thrive in the realm of spirit and the role of soul. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:03:33] I agree. It's interesting. To be honest, I don't know a lot about depth psychology, but I do like Jung and you know, one of the things that's always fascinated me about psychology is learning that it comes from the Greek word psyche, which actually means spirit, you know?

I'll just share as well that like you, it was more in my late teens or so that I was almost anti-religion. I had been raised in a very, almost restrictive religious environment and then I just kind of rebelled against it. Actually I came to yoga as an angry young woman. I found my way into a yoga class, thank God, because it was just advertised as free. And I was flexible, like literally physically flexible. So it was the first sport, so to speak, where I ever felt like a star, because I did cheerleading but I wasn't coordinated enough so I was always kind of the bottom one. But yeah, for the first time in yoga, I felt physically talented. But it was neat because those early religious experiences that I had, taught me prayer which is quiet contemplation. And so then I was able to just get right into mindfulness. That way I eventually found my way back to a religion, which you probably know too. I know you're a therapist. An associate therapist? Is that right? 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:04:54] I'm a licensed therapist now. Yeah. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:04:55] Oh, beautiful. So I just saw on LinkedIn, I think associate (therapist), but congratulations! 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:05:00] Thank you. What a journey. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:05:03] So as you know religiosity, the degree to which a person is religious, has been shown to actually be a protective factor. So I always tell people, it almost doesn't matter the religion even if the religion is yoga, it gives you something, like a better base. So, that's awesome. I'm just super curious, Vanessa, this show, the High-Functioning Hotspot, it's kind of like two things in one.

So I'm interested in talking to you about the way you work with high functioning people and all of that kind of stuff, but I'm also interested just in you as a high functioning person. So it's kind of there on both levels. If you wouldn't mind sharing maybe a little bit about yourself or the people you work with, I'm super interested.

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:05:54] So for my journey into being a therapist, originally, I really wanted to focus on adolescents and I had a personal interest in that. I have a sister who is 16 years younger than me. So I always felt like I was very connected to that young adult’s landscape. I worked with a bunch of young adults when I was at my internship and I really enjoyed it.

And then it somehow made its way into, it's funny you say high functioning, but it did somehow make its way into people who reflected back to me. The things that I had been through in my personal life as well. And if you want to say “overcame”, whatever that even means, but there was a saying that we had in school which was “The clients that you need we'll find you”.

And so I found myself actually surrounded by many people who, like myself, were the angry 20-something year old, right? Not quite sure why they were angry, relationships weren't as enriching as they wanted them to be, a lot of people who were unhappy in their careers were looking to make career transitions, transitional places in their life period. Those who, also like myself, were very curious about Buddhist psychology and mindfulness, and really wanted to kind of open up to more spirit in their life, more soul in their life. And so that's kind of what it's blossomed into now. As far as my practice, I work with a lot of people. For me, everybody I work with, I come from a mindfulness space, at a depth and a yoga psychology space and Buddhist psychology as well.

So that is kind of like the foundation of all of the work I work with clients on. And then most of the people who come to me, like I said, transitional places in their lives. High functioning, high powered career people who are like, “This is not fulfilling me and I don't know what to do. I don't know how to bring that fulfillment into my life”. 

And then recently in the last, probably two years or so, I've had an influx of people working through codependency issues. So that's become a big thing for me. I, myself, like to say I'm a recovering codependent. And I've done, what I was going to say is like actually, I'm starting to realize that I swear I think everybody has codependent tendencies to a certain extent, you know, different degrees and they show up in different ways at different relationships. Different people trigger different things in us.

And it's very different than what we used to hear, which is like “addict, codependent”. That was kind of it, that is obviously still an important component to it, but there's so much more to it than that. So I've realized that it's parlayed into this whole other subsection of people, which is struggling with codependency.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:08:21] Really interesting. I have so many questions for you. I'm just trying to choose which one. I know that you had a background as a creative director for places like Coca Cola and you know, really big places. Which I admire so much because I could never be a creative director. I'm a little bit more like probably on the research linear side. I really admire people that are able to have that creative spirit but actually still also fit in to a corporate environment because we've all known creative people that are just like la la la la and they just want to go march to their own drum and they can't ever figure out how to do a band, so to speak. So it's really awesome that you were able to actually thrive in that field as a high functioning person, but then you made a move and decided you wanted to become, you know, get your yoga certification and become a therapist. 

As you probably know, most people that try to go into private practice as a therapist, I'm sorry to say, don't do very well. You said earlier that they tell you the clients that you need will find you, most therapists find that a myth. I actually have a wonderful program that I teach therapists how to have their own successful practice. It's almost like a side business of mine because so many therapists just, they just don't know.

But you, you not only thrived as a creative director, you then did a career switch and still thrived in a totally different career. Both fields are not easy for a person to do well in. So I'm curious, for you and don't be afraid to toot your own horn a little bit cause I'm asking you to do that here, to share with other people so that they could learn from you. What's the through line like that, whether it's through that creative director or becoming a creative director or becoming a successful independent practitioner, why did you succeed where others failed? 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:10:25] Well, to kind of correct it, I was in the creative industry but I was more on the marketing director side. So I was more like the producer strategist, but I worked in the creative team. So I was part of the creative team, but I wish I was a creative director as well but I’m not that good, but it is still a creative role right? And I think that, actually, to your point many creatives have such a hard time. 

They're so creative, but they have such a hard time putting things into like a linear process or like here's your deadline. And so I always said like, my job was to herd the cats. Right. It was my job to not only be part of the creative decisions and the brainstorming and the creativity but also to make sure that it should actually get out the door.

And so I think for me if I really go back and I think about where my codependency has actually helped me, right? And we talked about through line, I do say I teach a bunch of codependency courses and actually one of the things I always say is that these codependent tendencies are not always the worst thing ever. Things like these can either be our super power or our kryptonite. It just depends on how you use them and how much you understand them. And so for me, pre-understanding them, I relied heavily on that. I am very able to go into a room, read energy, adjust myself accordingly. I'm very extroverted, which I will say in the therapy world is different.

I know within my cohort, at my grad school out of like 32 of us there were only two of us that were extroverts, everybody else was an introvert. Which I have found in my experience to be kind of the norm with therapists. So that has helped me obviously go out and kind of hustle and you know, it is what it is, but that is a part of it.

But I think as far as through line goes, I think for me it was resiliency. I think, being comfortable with well, comfortable as much as we can be as humans comfortable with change, working on my own, being very grounded in my own practices. So my own yoga practices, my own mindfulness practices, my meditation practices, which really helped me be kind to myself. 

Be able to restart my life again and not expect myself to be at a level 10 when I'm just coming in the door to two. And I do think from my experience, working with other people who have done similar career transitions, that for me was the biggest component to being able to be successful again, which was coming back to kindness coming back to compassion on myself. 

"You've got this, you can do this. Don't expect yourself to be here when you're here." It's that self-talk. That was a big component for me. I do think that the other part of it really is just, you kind of said it earlier, I do have this ability to be very left brain when necessary, and I can also be very creative when necessary.

I'm also very open to asking help from those people who have the skills and the areas that I don't. I don't feel ashamed for asking help. It’s like what you said about teaching therapists how to get clients. It's like, if that was something I wasn't good at, I would be very open to saying, Hey, I need help with this right? 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:13:19] Beautiful. I'm just making some notes as to that's really helpful. I appreciate that very open answer. I just want to echo what you said about how it's important to learn to embrace certain parts of ourselves. Like I have clients that come to me and I'm sure you do too that will say like, how do I get rid of my anxiety?

And I always tell them, you know what, a person without anxiety would be dead. Anxiety's healthy function is to stimulate preparatory behaviors. And we just need to understand it, learn how to dialogue with it, learn how to maybe give it some better tools to get what it wants and actually listened to it because when we try to drown out a part of ourselves, that's when it has to just stomp and shout and make up a panic attack or something to get attention. 

So by learning to listen to it that makes so much sense, and learning how to ask for help is another big one. I think sometimes high-functioning people struggle with that. They feel like they're supposed to have all the answers. On the other hand though, it's actually a high functioning skill to be able to learn and assess when you do need help and be able to ask for it.

So for anyone listening, I just want to affirm that, that it's always a good idea. No shame. And in fact, it's actually a badge of honor to have the awareness that you actually need to ask for some help. So thank you for mentioning that. Now I want to ask you another question, because honestly it sounds like you and I have kind of a lot in common, I'm kind of guessing which is, you know, just that you've shared a little bit about your younger years and mine were somewhat similar.

 Just in the sense of going through some tumultuous times and some codependency and things like that. We're so vulnerable when we need help. So speaking again of actually asking for help especially when we're younger and don't know as much, but for even many of my listeners might be in their thirties or forties or fifties, but they're having their first experience of saying, "I think I might want to talk to a coach or I think I might want to talk to a therapist, or a yoga teacher or healer". You know, some other kind of person that's going to help with that department. And one of the things I've also noticed with high-functioning people is that they do tend to respect authority. So if they meet someone that has even just like a bunch of letters after their name, which like a bunch of, you know, therapists are keen for doing, and I often sometimes find that there's an inverse relationship between how many letters do you have after your name and how much knowledge and training you actually have.

 And sometimes the practitioners, they just want to pile up a bunch of letters behind their last name. Then these high-functioning people who just say, "Well this person has been to all these programs. I don't know much about the field. And so I'm just going to follow what they're telling me".

I actually feel like that's the time when high functioning people can actually become very vulnerable. As you said, there's two sides to every coin, but one of the sides to a high functioning person is usually that they will digest and follow directions. So, if the practitioner is sending them off course as has happened to me before, I actually talk about this a little bit in my book, published by Macmillan, Nervous Energy: Harness, the Power of Your Anxiety. I share a story about a time when I was in my super, super early twenties, it was like decades ago. I saw this therapist that was just off base, let's just say, and I thank God that I somehow just had the wherewithal to recognize that and not continue going to her.

I'm just curious if you can share, even maybe from your personal experience, if you've ever had a time where there was, we know it happens unfortunately all the time in the yoga world, and I love yoga, I was a yoga teacher before I was a psychologist. But we all know that there's a million awful stories about yoga gurus that ended up having sexual issues with their students and everything.

So can you share, how do we kind of navigate that line between being open and vulnerable in that psyche spirit? “I'm opening up, I'm receiving the help. I'm taking a leap of faith. And even if it doesn't feel natural, I'm going to do it anyway because my goal is to break my patterns”. How do people kind of marry that with, “But I'm going to walk away if it's wrong”. Can you share a story from your own life or just thoughts about it? I would be super excited to hear. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:17:54] Yeah. What first comes up for me when you're saying that is, so the school that I went to is Pacifica Graduate Institute. It's in Santa Barbara. And it's actually only one of the two Jungian programs, I believe in the whole country, and the Depth Psychology programs.

One of the things about that school that was different and that stood out to me is that it was still mandatory for you to do your own therapy. And in the state of California, that has actually, starting in 2021, that's going away as one of the requirements to get licensed. And that actually in my body, I can feel like being very upset about that.

My suggestion that I tell all clients, whether I'm working with them or giving them referrals or whatever, is one of the first questions I truly believe that you should and have every right to ask a clinician that you're about to embark on, to your point a very vulnerable, very raw experience, is ask them about their own work.

Because what I always say to people is, “Would you go to a dentist that had bad teeth?”. Probably not, I know far, far, far too many clinicians who have never done their own therapy, that upsets me. That actually kind of enrages me to be quite honest and use a really big emotional word there. I believe you're actually doing a disservice to your clients if you have never actually had to have a mirror put up to yourself and done your own inner work. So I'm very passionate about that, that first and foremost is what I tell everybody. And don't be afraid. Don't be embarrassed to ask those questions. You know, you're interviewing this person to potentially be your therapist.

You have to be able to ask hard questions of this person too. Right? So first and foremost, there's my answer on that. But the other part would be, I always say that finding a therapist or finding a practitioner is like dating. We all have this kind of gut feeling that comes up when we enter into a potential relationship with somebody new, if it's romantic or even friends.

And part of it is listening to your gut, part of it is listening to your intuition. Now for a lot of us, unfortunately, that dial has been turned way down. We have much more of a, “I need to listen to everybody else around me”, right? To your point, high-functioning people do tend to follow directions really well. They tend to take in and then execute upon what they're told.  And in this instance, I would say your job going into potentially finding a new clinician is actually to try to go inward. And listen to what your body is telling you, right? So is your gut clenching when you're sitting across from this person? And if it is, listen to that, what does that tell you? It might just be nerves and that's okay. But if it's trying to tell you that something doesn't feel quite right and you need to listen to that. This isn't about thinking, this isn’t our left brain. I need to think my way through. Is this the right person or not for me? This is actually an intuitive sense, this is a very specific feeling sense. 

And if you can really follow your gut on that, you're probably going to be more likely to find a connection with somebody who was really going to help you heal. Rather than again, thinking your way into something that might not be the best fit for you.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:20:57] Yeah, that's super interesting. I recently gave a talk. I'm a consultant to Baker McKenzie, which is the third largest law firm in the world. I gave a talk to them and I was discussing uncertainty, decision-making in times of uncertainty. And one of the things I found in my own research preparing for the presentation.

And you may find this interesting, is that there are neuropeptides that cross the blood-brain barrier. They're the same ones that are active in times of uncertainty that they become active in the brain and they become active in the body. So, to your point, when we have that gut, kind of stomach clenching feeling, it's actually almost like a part of our brain.

So what I tell people to do when they feel that feeling is to actually dialogue with that feeling and to ask it, “What is it that you want? What is it that you need?” To not try to shout it down, but to ask in dialogue with it. I know a lot of people, it might sound like new age woo stuff to them when I say this, and that's why to me, it's really important that as a clinical psychologist, I want people again, to know that these are freaking neuropeptides.

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:22:13] Give them the science, right? Yeah. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:22:15] Like this isn't just like a new age side here or whatever, and like actual science, which I just find so interesting. And I love your analogy about, “Would you go see a dentist that had bad teeth?” I make a similar analogy which is, “Would you see a college counselor that never graduated from college?” Probably not. They don't have those skills to help you get through that. So I know I'm not going to keep you forever. I know it's just half an hour. So I do have a couple more questions for you, but before I get to that, I do want to just give you a chance that if you either had questions for me, or if there was something that's coming up in your life or your professional offerings or anything that you want to share and talk about or mention how people can find you. Let's make sure that we have time for that part now. And then I'll just get to my questions after that.

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:23:09] Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think what you're doing is awesome as far as like, we all have our niche and we all have kind of the people that we know, we resonate with the best or the most, they resonate the most with us.

And so I just wanted to first and foremost say, and I think that's awesome that you have found this group of people who really needs the help, and sometimes it's almost more afraid to admit that they need the help. And so that's why I think it's awesome that you focus on this specific population of people.

Right now, the pandemic has been crazy for all of us. And I'm a new mom, so I have a little one at home, a seven month old. So I'm yeah, I know I had her in like two weeks later, we went into quarantine which was what a wild ride that's been. But I try doing that and managing, working right at the same time.

So I'm not seeing that many clients right now because I only have so many hours in the day. But you can find me on Instagram. I do have a lot of programs that I run.  I have a mindfulness-based cognitive therapy program that I specifically dedicate to helping overcome depression and anxiety symptoms. It is based on neuroscience and there's a lot of research backing it. So if you're interested, you can find that on my Instagram.  I also teach a bunch of codependency classes every week, like I mentioned. So for anybody who's curious about that, please check that out again. You can find that in my Instagram and it’s @vanessasbennett. That's where you can find me. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:24:30] Okay, cool. I may check that out myself to learn about it. One of the things that I always find so interesting too, like in grad school, when we were researching, you know, exactly which therapy treatment is the most effective. One of the things that I thought was really interesting is that specifically only for high functioning people, what is actually the most important part is actually what's called a “Therapeutic Alliance” which is the connection that you basically have with the therapist in so many words. I found that so interesting that it's really about the charisma, in a way, or just personal accountability or whatever it is that you find that you connect with the therapist for a high functioning person, that's actually going to be more important than whether they're practicing some particular modality of psychology versus the other one. 

And for lower functioning people, that wasn't true. Which to me makes sense, because if your problem is that you're seeing little green men, then it doesn't matter how much you like the therapist. You just need a therapist to basically drill you about the fact that there are no little green men, or help you learn how to take your medication or whatever it is.

But for high functioning people, it was actually really the quality of the connection. And, you know, Vanessa, you're clearly an easy person to connect with. And I just want to say that, you know, for anyone who's even maybe listening and not watching the video. I feel like I see a lot of life and energy on your face and I just, I think that's so important when it comes to a high functioning person. We want to see and feel that there's a live wire. And I see that with you. I think that's so wonderful. And congratulations on having a little one. I actually have a little one myself. Best thing I ever did. It is so fantastic. 

But I did want to ask you though, like kind of another thing that I actually say in my book that I encourage people to consider asking their therapist if they're interviewing them. Speaking of the cons, we were just talking about energy and just how much energy a person has and how important that is when you're working with clients, is I actually suggest to clients that they might even want to ask the therapist "How many clients a week that they see and how many clients has that therapist treated that has my issue. And how many do you see a week?" I'm curious about that because I remember in my super early days, when I was fresh out of grad school, I was like a kid in a candy store. I could see like literally, probably 40 clients a week. At this point, I'm seeing 10 to 12 and it's like enough, you know?

It's really good, but I couldn't imagine giving more. I'm just curious for you, if you feel like you're in a phase since you're new and you're just like, give me more or it's since having a little one, I didn't have a little one when I was new. So tell me about you in that regard. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:27:26] Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's one of those when you get out, you're super excited. I do think, unfortunately, depending on what state you're in New York and California are very similar when it comes to their licensing at least on like the MFT side, by the time you get the 3000 hours, most people that I know are so exhausted that they're almost ready to pull it back by then anyway, which is I think very unfortunate in the way that the process is run.  Especially because so many people have to get their hours in places that are very high stress and very underpaid and things like that. So I think that there definitely can be some things that could be worked out in the licensing process.

But for me right now, I mean, at one point I was seeing probably about 30 clients a week. I think what I have realized, again, going back to the fact that I do feel like I'm a little unusual in that I'm very extroverted, for myself pretty early in, actually I was still in grad school. I was still interning at the time.

I realized that doing one-on-one practice full-time was actually not what I wanted to do.  And the reason why I realized that is because I'm such an extrovert. I realized sitting in a room with one person all day, actually wasn't doing it for me. I really love seeing one or two people a day, but then I like being able to also put my energy into you know, like I teach, like I said, big groups, dialogues. It's an online program. 

My partner is actually also a therapist. And so he has this amazing thing called the Lab. And so it's almost like a yoga studio for your mental health where there's multiple classes every day, multiple therapists, multiple coaches. And it’s all virtual.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:29:04] What's the handle in case people want to check it? 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:29:06] Yeah. You can go to the website actually. His handle, his name is actually The Angry Therapist. So it's TAT, The Angry Therapist. https://tatlab.app/. And so like every day of the week there's multiple scheduled classes, whatever, and you can jump into any of them and it's like a monthly membership.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:29:24] Now I have to ask. So The Angry Therapist, does this mean that like, he kind of is like a drill Sergeant? Like “Everybody, reflect!”. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:29:35] Yeah. So he's been doing this for a long time. And when he first started practicing, this was probably like 12, 13 years ago. He was going through a divorce at the time. And he was in a really bad place. He really decided that as a therapist, he wanted to open up and be transparent and get rid of this whole, like as a therapist, I had to be very stoic and you can't know anything about me and I'm a blank slate and all these things. And so he basically put his first blog posts. He's an author as well, a published author. He put this book out there, or this blog post that said you know, “I'm angry. I'm not doing well, I'm a therapist like how can I help you?”. And he basically became known as the angry therapist because of that. He was in a bad place. So it just stuck. And so now it's just his way of giving a nod to, “as therapists, we have emotions and go through things as well”. And so that's what he's known as The Angry Therapist.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:30:24] That is so awesome! In my book, one of the techniques I teach is something I called The To-Do Lists with Emotion. Which is where we look at our emotions around the things that are on our to-do list and we use them to think about how we can get self-care or how we can get energy.

Because I think you mentioned earlier that yes, you know, sometimes high functioning people can be so good at putting their feelings aside. That we actually forget that in fact feelings actually have an evolutionary value event that they can actually fuel us and inform us.  So that's awesome.

Well, Vanessa time has flown by. Thank you for sharing with me, everything that you did. I hope that we'll stay in touch and I hope you enjoy our little one. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:31:06] Yeah. Thank you. You too. And I really appreciate you having me on. This was fun. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:31:10] Pleasure was mine. Take care. 

Vanessa Smith Bennett: [00:31:11] Thanks. 

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:31:14] Wow. That was such a great conversation. I really just feel enlightened and uplifted by the chance to speak with Vanessa. I find in psychology that there's a lot of studies that have shown that the effectiveness of a therapist is oftentimes less about even whatever modality of therapy they're using and a lot about just that therapist themselves.

And so I can see where Vanessa is really, truly an inspiring person. And again, for me as a former yoga teacher and now a psychologist, it's really exciting to see her really embracing being a yoga teacher with such freshness and excitement. So I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did have a great rest of the day.

 

• Vanessa Smith Bennett’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/vanessasmith.bennett
• Dr. Chloe’s Homepage - http://drchloe.com/
• Vanessa Smith Bennett’s Website - https://www.vanessabennett.com/
• The Angry Therapist - https://www.theangrytherapist.com/
• The Angry Therapist Lab - https://www.theangrytherapistlab.com/
• Vanessa Smith Bennett’s LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessasmithbennett/
• Vanessa Smith Bennett’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/vanessasmith.bennett
• Vanessa Smith Bennett’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/vanessasbennett/