Episode 27

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: My guest today is Nichol Bradford. She is at the Transformative Technology Lab, which as I discovered during the interview is a project of a nonprofit called Multiplier and what they do, in Nichol's case with the Transformative Technology is she's helping people to figure out how to use technology to transform their lives for the better and make them less stressful. So that's her goal, and I'm really excited to share the interview with her. And without any further ado, I'm just going to go ahead and get right into it. My interview with Nichol Bradford from Transformational Technology.

[00:00:45] Nichol, thank you so much for joining me on the High Functioning Hotspot. From what I understand, you have some really interesting approaches to technology, which is not my strong suit. So I'll let you explain that part if you don't mind.

[00:00:55] Nichol Bradford: Okay. Great. So my name's Nichol Bradford everyone and I am the Co-founder of the Transformative Technology Lab. And our thesis and really what all of our work is about is about applying technology to the inner human. So specifically what that means is we're interested in tech for mental and emotional wellbeing, social and emotional wellness and human purpose and performance. And what that might look like that you might recognize is we're interested in things for stress, anxiety, garden variety depression, happiness, and sleep. So that might be a Calm (app) or it might be another meditation app that you might think about, or it might be Happify, which has a really big enterprise business  for helping people in companies.

[00:01:53] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I have to say, I've heard of the Calm App before, but I've never heard of Happify. What a great name.

[00:01:59] Nichol Bradford: Yeah, they're a great company and we could talk more about them. The second category is social emotional wellness. And there's not as many products in that category that's about self-awareness, emotional self-regulation and really all of the skills that are about humans working together because the future of work is really about humans solving problems together.

[00:02:25] Most other tasks that I wrote will be automated by software. And so what's really going to be left are people solving problems together and creating new things. But we don't really teach people how to do that. We just teach people how to do the other stuff and hope that they get the second part right from the culture or from the company that they're at.

[00:02:47] So products in that category is, my favorite product is a robot called Moxie. It was designed to help teach children social emotional learning skills, it's a beautiful product and we can talk about it. And then the third one category is human purpose and performance.

[00:03:10] And so that's using technology to help people discover their passion, what really has meaning for them. And then also other things like enhancing cognitive and emotional capacity. So a cognitive enhancer might be things like there's a rather large neurotech company called Halo that does non-invasive electrical neurostimulator.

[00:03:35] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Nichol, I'm sorry to interrupt you. This is all super interesting, but I just want to make sure that we really keep up with you or even myself, on just a really, truly nuts and bolts practical level to just understand what you mean. So when you say technology, I guess apparently I think you mean apps and robots and things that we're going to be using that your thing can help to teach us social skills and things like that.

[00:04:03] So just to keep it very real, I want to just have a real conversation. So, I'll share with you. I'm a mom, and for me, the idea of a robot to teach my child social and emotional skills gives me shutters. Right? As a Psychologist and a former yoga teacher, I'm just deeply attached to the human spirit.

[00:04:30] So can you speak to the concern that, you know, a mom or a parent might have about the idea of what, why wouldn't we want to teach social and emotional skills to our children the old fashioned way? Like from us as people that have emotions. Why would we put that out to a robot?

[00:04:49] Nichol Bradford: You know, I think it's a really good question. Because I get that question a lot, I guess. And we can break it down into a couple of things. I would say one thing just to have a thought experiment, just to think a little bit differently about it is that children are born with vocal chords, but they're not born fluent in Spanish, English, French, or Chinese. They learn that.

[00:05:19] And so we're born with emotions, we're not born emotionally fluent. And when one thinks of technology, so like I'm wearing glasses right now and you and I are talking over Zoom. 3,000 years ago, these would probably be a burnable offense. So technology is simply a tool that humans use.

[00:05:44] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Burnable offense? I'm sorry, what does that mean? Like you mean people didn't want you to wear glasses. I'm sorry. 

[00:05:50] Nichol Bradford: 3,000 years ago.

[00:05:52] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: It would be a burnable offense, how?

[00:05:55] Nichol Bradford: 3,000 years ago, glasses were not widely developed. So 3,000 years ago, that would have been. I mean it's so.

[00:06:05] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: It would have been a shocker for sure. But I am just not sure, are you saying people would find it offensive?

[00:06:11] Nichol Bradford: Well, so technology, when it comes in, always seems like magic to people. So there's a lot of things that we sort of assume or things that we take for granted. Like your microwave, your vacuum cleaner.

[00:06:30] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Right. Like it could have been disturbing or frightening if it seemed magical and scary. 

[00:06:36] Nichol Bradford: Or magical. So, 3,000 or 4,000 years ago, we assumed that lightning came from the gods. It doesn't, it's weather. We track hurricanes now. And a period of time before that we human beings used divination rods to try and see what was happening with the crops.

[00:07:05] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: And so you think that maybe technology is the best way for us to learn about, to teach children about emotional regulation.

[00:07:12] Nichol Bradford: Nope. It's just the way to think about technology is simply as a support. As simply as an addition. So today the full scope of human knowledge is on the internet.

[00:07:29] Technology has made all of human knowledge available on the internet. That doesn't mean that a teacher isn't relevant. A teacher is what brings it home and makes it live. So, with a teacher and then teachers are supported by technology in many different ways.

[00:07:53] And so our design principles, we're very focused. One of our design principles as humans in the loop. So never technology for technology's sake. There's another one that we believe strongly in, which is better without. If you use technology to develop a skill, it shouldn't become your crutch. It should be something that trains you for something. And then, once you develop a skill, then you can put it away.

[00:08:29] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. I guess we all maybe have different zones of our life where we feel that technology would be an aid versus maybe not. Maybe, perhaps for me since I like to think of myself as an emotionally intelligent person. Maybe that's just something where for whatever reason, I would just have a particular attachment to wanting to teach those skills to my child myself. But maybe if you had a parent perhaps that didn't have the skills. Then maybe they would feel that a robot would be helpful. 

[00:09:01] Nichol Bradford: Or actually, let me give you one more example. So this particular robot, what it does, because it probably helps to actually react to what it actually is instead of sort of an idea about it. What it actually does is, it sends children on missions and the people who designed it, designed it with the intention of it being an ally to parents.

[00:09:24] So it comes with gold standard, social emotional academics. So it's all the academic-grade research on how to teach these things. And the way to think about it is, more like the chapter headings in a book. And so it might ask children who their best friend is and ask how their best friend feels.

[00:09:49] It's not meant to replace parents. It's not meant to be TV cause it's actually only active for one hour a day. So it can't be binged on like anyone who I didn't. I'm sure your children don't watch, use their tablets a lot

[00:10:05] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: My child doesn't have a device. No. 

[00:10:09] Nichol Bradford: Yeah. But many parents, especially, maybe working class parents, that happens, you know? And so there are some people who might be in this situation where they have devices to help with school work or things like that.

[00:10:42] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Whatever is best for people, I mean, obviously everyone's got their own thing that makes sense for them.

[00:10:48] I know plenty of parents who are in a much better financial position than I am but their children have devices because they just feel like it's actually a value add for them. And I certainly know parents who are in a much worse situation than I am and some of their children have devices and some of them don't. Some of them definitely don't.

[00:11:09] I guess it just depends. And I'm curious, Nichol, how you personally just got into this, if you can share how your own personal journey with technology.

[00:11:23] Nichol Bradford: Yeah. I mean, so really what it was is I went on a meditation retreat and I had a really incredible experience and I wanted it to be available to everyone. I wanted all sorts of people to have access to it. And this was in 2015, so this was actually before Calm or they had just gotten started. And so I wanted everyone to have access to it. And the thing about technology for me is it's just a tool and I thought, well, this is a really great way because going on retreat, even if it doesn't cost any money most of the people in the world work every day.

[00:12:13] So even a free retreat is kind of an elite experience because most people don't have the luxury of going away for 10 days and not making money. And so I thought, how can we bring this to more people? And so then I thought, oh, well, technology could be useful for that.

[00:12:40] And then as I started to learn more about meditation, I thought, well, not everyone's going to meditate. So what are some of the other ways that  we can help people with this. Help people just learn to be more self-aware in a really crazy world. And then if you're in this area at all and that you're a psychologist, when you're in this area at all, you can't help but see the global statistics on stress, anxiety, depression, loneliness. It's like the world mind is in a very intense place and there aren't enough psychologists, like just by pure numbers. There aren't enough therapists and if you were to take every current school that licenses those people and to fill it to its brim, I saw a UN report, it would take well over a hundred years at current capacity to educate enough people.

[00:13:52] To certify enough people in order to match up to the global stats of how many people are in need. And so when either says, well, okay, there's one way to do it. And the way we've always done it is the right way. And it doesn't matter how many people are in that Delta, between need and resource. Or we say, let's see how can we give the teachers and the coaches and the psychologists and the psychiatrists that we have, how can we give them superpowers? What can we do to support them so that they can help more people without it affecting the quality of what they do.

[00:14:40] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: So the tools that you make are actually, some of them intended to be used by therapists or coaches working with their clients?

[00:14:48] Nichol Bradford: I would say all of the most successful products I've seen are products that have a human being in the loop. Meaning there is a human being who is helping, who is using the technology either to support other people, like another product that I think is really great that moms might know about that’s a fantastic product is nuME. nuME is a weight loss product. It's like a modern WeightWatchers but what they do, what they really know how to do is they really know how to help people change their behavior.

[00:15:29] They help people change their psychology about weight loss or their psychology about their weight. And so then they're really successful in not only helping people lose weight, but keeping the weight off. So successful that they have had to find other verticals, other things to approach, because what they do is, you have a therapist, you have a coach, a nutrition coach, and then you have a community. And so even though it's all on an app, it's all delivered via an app  and you communicate with your coach via an app. So there's technology everywhere, there's people everywhere too. And now they've moved into mental fitness and they're doing cognitive behavioral therapy delivered via the app because what they really have is a behavior change system.

[00:16:17] And I think in order for people to really change, there have to be people involved. And so the technology is just a support for that. It's never to replace, in my opinion, it's only to give people superpowers.

[00:16:34] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Oh sure! Yeah. There's so many ways. I don't mean to sound like I'm negative on technology. Like obviously, I love it. You know, the fact that we can even just sit here and have a video conversation. And I'm a big believer in the power of habit formation and getting the right nudges at the right time. It's great that you're looking at technology that can enhance that for people in whatever way that they personally define it.

[00:17:01] So I mean, as you said, that the user is ultimately in control of what technology they decide to pick up and it sounds like in terms of the intention that you have of wanting to create technology that will just bring people into greater attunement with themselves and reaching their greatest capacity, I think that's awesome. And so you got into that by going on a meditation retreat and then wanting to figure out how to bring that experience to other people that might not have that sort of access. And so how long have you been, how long have you had the lab going? Do you do it full time? Do other people work for you? And what did you do before? I'm just trying to get a sense of your journey.

[00:17:47] Nichol Bradford: Yeah. So, it's a .org and we've been going since 2015 and now we have members in 72 countries, 450 cities. We have chapters, we have 30 city chapters. And our community are builders. So they're basically, they're basically clinicians, therapists, researchers, scientists, founders, investors, engineers. They're basically people who want to build these types of technologies regardless of how they identify the work that they do, their goal is that they want to build technology that supports human beings in this way. And then I came to it before I had been in tech, which was why it was a tool that I was really comfortable with.

[00:18:54] And then when I looked around and I saw that there just really weren't, there wasn't really a way to, it was really hard to find the good stuff. Like I've gone through some programs here in California that I only found because of my network. It's like for a lot of the really good training programs and there's so many things that you just have to be in the right place at the right time to learn about really important or useful tools. And so I want it to be able to make that more widely accessible.

[00:19:41] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Right, for sure. So you were in tech, what were you doing in tech before?

[00:19:48] Nichol Bradford: I was in video games.

[00:19:51] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Like designing games or what were you doing in that regard?

[00:19:53] Nichol Bradford: I was on the business side of it.

[00:19:57] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Okay, cool. So you're a .org, but I assume you're for-profit or are you  501(c)3?

[00:20:03] Nichol Bradford: We are a project of Multiplier, and so it's a .org and we're not a for-profit organization. We are, however, a for-impact organization.

[00:20:14] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That's so interesting. Because personally, I'm obviously interested in psychology, but I'm also really interested in business and I'm interested in high-functioning people in general.

[00:20:23] So my interest in speaking with you is partly about Transformative Technology, but it's also just about who you are. You know, how that business works. So it's interesting. So it's not a not-for-profit, but it's not a for-profit? I just want to understand, how does that work? 

[00:20:44] Nichol Bradford: We are a project of Multiplier.

[00:20:49] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Is that an official term? I don't know the term. I'm sorry. 

[00:20:52] Nichol Bradford: Yeah. Yeah, it's a non-profit. And it's a nonprofit organization. 

[00:20:58] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Projected Multiplier? I just feel like I should be learning.

[00:21:01] Nichol Bradford: So we sit on top of Multiplier, which works with 50 different non-profit organizations.

[00:21:14] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Is Multiplier the name of a company?

[00:21:16] Nichol Bradford: Multiplier’s the name of a company, they are also a non-profit.

[00:21:23] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Huh. So Multiplier is the name of a company. It's not a category of companies. 

[00:21:30] Nichol Bradford: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, Multiplier’s the name. They basically support nonprofit organizations. And they do back office, and filing and strategy grants. 

[00:21:58] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Oh, that's awesome. I bet there's so many people who would love that. So I was hearing projective like a projected multiplayer, but you're a project of a company called Multiplier and they're a non-for-profit that as you said, they helped with the grants and the backend, which is awesome.

[00:22:17] I bet some people listening would maybe even want to check out Multiplier, like if they have a big idea, but they would need some funding. All of that stuff to go forward, like you have.

[00:22:28] Nichol Bradford: Yeah. Are you looking for sort of just different hacks that I have around how I manage. 

[00:22:35] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Sort of, I mean, sometimes there's like actual practical, key tip walkways that people like getting, but I also just think that we kind of are a product of the company that we keep.

[00:22:46] And so to a certain degree, like I'm keeping your company and the people who listen in to the show are keeping your company. And I just like hearing about people who are successful that maybe found a way to do something. And whether it be the actual steps you took or the attitude around it. Just sometimes hearing and learning about your journey.

[00:23:07] Nichol Bradford: Oh, that's really great. One of the most interesting things for your audience might be I went over it kind of quickly, but the thing that really happened on that meditation retreat is I had sort of like what could be called an awakening and the term is a little people use that term in a lot of different ways. For me, I just use it as sort of like a first glimpse into something different. And mainly what happened was that I had a huge drop in what's called rumination. And so that's just the inner chatter running around just like all the inner voices that criticize us and scare us and tell us everything's gonna go wrong.

[00:24:05]  And I definitely was someone, I was a senior exec, and I was definitely someone who thought a lot. I even thought when I was asleep, like I was always thinking, thinking, thinking, and I could tell that it was wearing me out. And so at the end of these 10 days, it was like my inner space was almost silent, which was like, if you'd known me before that would have come as a surprise to you because it was clearly someone who was like thinking too much.

[00:24:43] I was always in my head. And I had such an inner silence. And then the thing that happens when your inner roommate is not scaring you or criticizing you, is that you just become a lot less afraid. And when you become less afraid, you become happier. Like in 10 days, I walked out of this place unafraid and happy and no longer beating myself.

[00:25:20] And it was like, I was like, oh my God, this is it. Everyone should have this. If we weren't all beating ourselves inside, just think how we might show up with each other. Think about how much more connected we would be. Think about how we would do things differently. Think about the choices that we could make if we weren't afraid.

[00:25:41] So that's what really kicked it all off, was wanting everyone to have that. And then looking around the world and being like I'm very lucky, I'm so fortunate to be able to have 10 days of vacation. At that time I was in Asia and you definitely see cultures that work around the clock. And you can see a wide range of economic levels. Like it's such a gift to be able to take this time, but not everyone is ever going to be able to do that. So how do we make this more accessible to people? So for me, just because of where I was at, that seemed like one way to do it and I think the points that you raised at the beginning are really valid.

[00:26:35] One of the problems with tech is, so much tech is presented as the solution. The all encompassing solution and it's not human centered. All your questions at the beginning were absolutely valid and your concerns are absolutely valid because everything that's out there, well, not everything, a lot of what's out there takes people out of the middle. Or sets people up in these dependent relationships with tech, as opposed to it just being a best friend or like another member on the team for parents to support them. Not to give them another problem to solve.

[00:27:22] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. Well, I mean, again, like I'm actually pretty tech-friendly,. There's apps even like BetterHelp and things that a lot of therapists are really against, whereas I'm actually for them. I don't have any problem with the basic idea of people wanting to do like a text message relationship with their therapist and just the ability to get like in-the-moment support. I don't think everything has to be always face-to-face. So I guess maybe like most people, perhaps I have kind of a love-hate relationship with technology. So I think it's awesome that you're trying to just make it healthier for people.

[00:28:00] Now I have another question for you just kind of separately. So since you're in tech and obviously you like tech, how many hours would you say of screen time per week do you currently have when you include like your phone and your computer and our zoom meetings and all that kind of stuff?

[00:28:21] Nichol Bradford: Right now, way too much. I'm so ready for this pandemic to be over. So I don't know if right now is a good indicator, just because it's like I have an elder that I also take care of, so I am probably more on the range of like how rigid you are about being very COVID cautious. I'm on the far side on COVID caution, just because I have to make sure that I don't expose my elder and that I'm available.

[00:29:14] And so, but over the last year, I've been just really more cautious than most and I cannot wait, I can’t wait.. So on the other side of all of this, I definitely think that there's way too much screen time. Especially for me.

[00:29:38] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah, again, that when it comes to technology, I'm super into the voice technology, to your point about us kind of all having had our fill, I think of screen time to a certain degree, but I personally am getting super into the voice technology. I love being able to just use my voice to get my podcast going or, whatever it is.

[00:29:58]  I even have, I can turn my lights on and off. Like, I'll say, “Alexa, turn off Chloe's office lights”. And then they'll go off. “Alexa, turn on Chloe's office lights” and then they'll come back on. 

[00:30:14] Nichol Bradford: Are you on Clubhouse? 

[00:30:17] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I am, yeah. Are you? 

[00:30:19] Nichol Bradford: Yeah. Do you like it, the voice?

[00:30:21] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: So I like it, but I never use it. Like I have it, but I don't know. When I'm working, I'm working, and I like to be totally focused. And when I'm not working, I like to have my phone away, like gone. So, but I feel like Clubhouse for me, like the times I've had fun with it are like, if I'm going to be like, oh, well I'm going to be cleaning the house. Or like, I've got to do something with makeup or whatever.

[00:30:54] And so, I'll put it on and then I'll just have it in the background or something.I guess I shouldn't take credit for cleaning my whole house, I do get help with that, but when I'm going to be doing like a project around the house or just certain things, I feel like it's nice to have, like a little conversation that I can join into, but I still don't feel like I fully get it.

[00:31:16] Like people that are hosting rooms and stuff. I can't imagine just blocking out hours of my day and being like, oh, I'm just going to sit here and monitor this conversation. I don't know why, but I would totally like join rooms of other people's. But I would just need to plan them like when I could be doing a walk or something else. I don't know why. Like I just have a really hard time with just me and a phone. I don't know why. Have you been getting totally into it?

[00:31:48] Nichol Bradford: I feel the same way you do. I haven't like, I like it and I listen to it and I have a lot of friends on it, but I haven't gotten to the place where I've figured out how does Nichol show up on it in a formal way?

[00:32:04] Though one of our chapter leaders is setting up our own room and clubs and stuff on it, and then they'll be managing that, but I haven't quite figured it out. And I know that like Twitter's working on one, they have one in beta that will also have monetization in it. So when people start their Twitter version, they'll be able to also make it a business from the beginning. So I've heard that.

[00:32:44] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I'm excited to see where it goes. So you're in California, right?

[00:32:50] Nichol Bradford: Uhum. Where are you Chloe?

[00:32:51] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well, normally I'm in New York, but I recently just up and moved my whole family to Florida. So I'm enjoying it here.

[00:32:58] Nichol Bradford: So smart. So smart. I have a lot of friends who have moved to Florida and they are so happy. They left San Francisco and they're in Florida and they are just, they're happy there. They're like outdoors and they're like, it's like real life again. I'm hoping there's things that go back to normal and that I'm hoping things that never go back to normal in the sense that, for me over the last year, I really have been cooking a lot. I was moving around so much that  there's probably years where I  maybe cooked for myself just a little bit.

[00:33:40] Now I cook every meal and I love experimenting with it. I also spend a lot of time gardening with my hands in the dirt, which I think is incredible for psychological health. On the occasions where I've had the chance to be with people, I just really value it. It's really precious. And then also really showing up real, even on digital, because it's like two people who aren't being real can sit next to each other in person and not go below the first layer. But two people on a camera who make the decision to create a connection can have a stronger connection than two people being fake in person.

[00:34:47] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah, definitely. That's been such an exciting thing. I think with this pandemic is like discovering how we really can connect. So Nichol, on that note, it's probably a good note for us to wrap up because it really has been, I think, a pleasure to connect with you.

[00:35:05] I want to thank you for taking even some of my harder questions. I promise I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to kind of like unfiltered and share some of my thoughts and my questions. But I really want to thank you, Nichol, for what you're doing with the Transformative Technology Lab, a project of Multiplier, the nonprofit, which is out there helping people to think about how to use technology and the way that's really going to support us as human beings in whatever way that means to us. So I do hope that when this whole pandemic ends Nichol, one day, perhaps we can actually meet up in person. But in the meantime, you keep rocking it from California.

[00:35:49] Nichol Bradford: Great. Likewise. And thank you for your time. I think what you raised is a really important point around how technology should be way more humanistic than it is, and it's completely valid based on how technology is showing up today.

[00:36:09] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah, that's the goal. So I appreciate you trying to make it happen. Thank you! Take care. 

[00:36:14] Nichol Bradford: Thanks. Bye. 

[00:36:17] Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Wow. That was such an interesting interview. I have to say, I was almost afraid that we were going to get off on the wrong foot at first. It wasn't trying to give her a hard time about the whole question I had about the robot and children, but at the same time as the host, I really just want to try to keep it real and just share some of my unfiltered thoughts and questions. I feel like that's how it makes everything more interesting, at least for me and hopefully for all of you. And I want to thank Nichol as well. I think that Nichol really took my questions in stride and shared a lot as well, just from her own personal side as to how she got into all of this. And it was interesting as well, just to have a little bit of pandemic talk with her at the end and just hear how things are progressing. And I would love to hear from all of you. What were your thoughts about the robot with children or your thoughts about technology in general?

[00:37:07] And I just want to thank Nichol again. It sounds like the Transformative Technology Lab really is doing great stuff in many ways. And I appreciate all of you for listening. If you want to connect with me further, by all means I'm all over social media. I'd love to have you like, comment, subscribe, or even share this. If you feel like there's things that you're hearing on this channel and my High Functioning Hotspot or any of my other stuff by all means go ahead and share. And if you're not getting my monthly newsletter already, I hope that you'll go ahead and check it out. And of course my book, Nervous Energy: Harness the Power of Your Anxiety. So thanks again so much for listening and I'll see you at the next episode.

• The High Functioning Hotspot Podcast Homepage - www.TheHighFunctioningHotspot.com
• Dr. Chloe’s Homepage - http://drchloe.com/
• Nichol Bradford’s Website - https://nicholbradford.com/
• Transformative Technology Lab’s Website - https://transformativetech.org/
• Moxie - https://embodied.com/
• Nichol Bradford’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/nicholbradford
• Nichol Bradford’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nicholbradford/
• Nichol Bradford’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/Nichol_Bradford
• Nichol Bradford’s LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholbradford/