Military Lessons for Modern Life: A Conversation with Ian Howard

Dr. Chloe: How are you? 

Ian: Good, good. I can't complain. My wife and I, we got back last weekend. We went to the sand dunes in Colorado, which I didn't know Colorado had sand dunes. So it was a lot of fun. I highly recommend it. If you take your family, I highly recommend. You can actually slide. You can rent these little boards. They're made specifically for sand. And you can slide down them. So we did that one time around midnight. We went out to the sand dunes and then one time during the day. But it's a lot of fun. So yeah. 

Dr. Chloe: That is fun. I'm looking for my pencil here. I actually love sand dunes. I'm from Michigan and they have a lot of great sand dunes. How long have you been in Colorado? 

Ian: So off and on for about 10 years. The first time I was in Colorado, it was because of the military. And then when I retired, around the time I retired, I met my wife. And then I've been staying in the second time around since 2014. But before then, I was stationed in I was stationed in Colorado for about four or five years with the military and then switched duty stations. And then I came back because I knew I was going to retire here. So everything everything worked out perfectly. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah. And where did you grow up? 

Ian: So I grew up in St. Louis, St. Louis, Missouri. If you're from St. Louis, St. Louis is very it's very segregated town. I don't know if it's 

Dr. Chloe: Wait. Let me resume that. Sorry. So can you say that again about you said it's a very segregated town? 

Ian: It's a very segregated town. I didn't notice it when I was growing up. But so I grew up in North St. Louis and that's considered the black part of St. Louis, black part of town. And then South St. Louis is not as not as black or whatever term you want to use. I think recently, though, it's things have kind of changed recently. So it's kind of. You probably hear Maverick. He's over here. He's wondering why I'm talking to this. We have a pet here. Come here. Come here. He won't jump.

Dr. Chloe:  Is he camera shy? 

Ian: He'll jump up on me any other time. And then when I ask him to jump up, he won't do it. So he's just looking. Come here. Come here. Come here. here. Here he is. That's Maverick. 

Dr. Chloe: Hi, Maverick. Beautiful dog. 

Ian: Yes. Yes. So, yeah, I grew up in St. Louis, and then up until probably about 18 or 19, I went off to college and did the college thing. I think last time we talked, I think I told you, I went to a military school in Vermont. And then, yeah, so that's, yeah. 

Dr. Chloe:  Yeah. And I mean, that's an interesting observation about it being, you said a very segregated town. I assume that that wasn't by law, right? I mean, I don't know exactly what decade you refer to here, but do you feel like that was like a relic of just from when the laws were that way? 

Ian: I think part of it is a relic of laws. There was some segregation. Yeah, there was from speaking to my mom during the civil rights era, there was St. Louis is probably on the map of significant places where civil rights were fought for. And so I think it's a relic. It's a relic of that. And so a lot of times, when you're from St. Louis, you notice like you notice when you pass certain streets, you pass from the black neighborhood to the white neighborhood. And growing up, you just thought that was the way it was. And then when it gets explained to you, you kind of get locked into your different neighborhoods. But I think it's changed. It's starting to change. 

Since I've moved away, I kind of feel like because I've lived in Colorado so long. I have to mentally prepare myself when I go back to St. Louis because, you know, I deal with not only segregated areas, but also the crime. And so you have to be street savvy. You have to be very situationally aware. That's something that I practice. 

When I go home, like my wife, she kind of… She laughs at me. She's like, we go to a restaurant and she knows what seat I'm going to sit in. And she's like, I know you're going to, we're going to change seats. Which seat do you want to sit in? Because I'm always in the situational awareness. Some of that is military training too, but I've kind of learned that's kind of from my childhood up until military and then in retirement, that's kind of the progression that I've gotten. 

Dr. Chloe: Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a it's a luxury, right, that your wife can laugh about that. You know what I mean? It kind of reminds me in some way of it's almost like only rich people can laugh and say money doesn't matter. When when she knows that, you know, her husband is really thinking about safety and whatnot, then she can be lighthearted about it. So that's actually really nice. 

Ian: Right. I have before I forget about it, there's this very it's a very funny TikTok video and it explains what we're talking about.

There's this gentleman, he's walking with his girlfriend, and they're walking in the mall. And then they flash to her, and then there's a song, making my way downtown. And she's like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. she's even kind of mimicking the song. And then it flashes to him. He's like, okay, I see two suspicious people to the left. I see an escape route to the right. And it's meant to be funny, but I showed that to my wife. And I say, now watch this video. And I bet you laugh. And she saw it. She's like, yeah, that's me. I was like, yeah, because when we go out, I am situationally thinking about stuff. I'm thinking about, okay, where's the exit? Okay, what is that guy doing? I need to have my back turned. If something happens, you know, and not that I'm, it's not paranoia, because to other people that don't do that, it's paranoia. To me, it's, hey, I got to, I want to be, I would feel upset if I didn't proceed in that manner. And so, yeah, that's where that comes from. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah, you know, I think that as a psychologist, I might start to look at the differences there of paranoia. Like if, for example, beyond just simply being situationally aware, which is great, if it became such an intrusive thing that you were like unable to even just enjoy yourself at a church picnic, because you just were consumed. Do you know what I mean? And so there's a difference between that practical, pragmatic, habitual awareness versus like such an intrusive thought that it interferes with your functioning. And it sounds like you're on the right side of that equation that you and your wife are laughing about it. 

Ian: Yeah, even one more short story. My wife and I went to her cousin's wedding back in May.

And before the wedding, we're in Dallas, Dallas, Texas, downtown Dallas. And we're walking around downtown and downtown Dallas there are a lot of homeless people that could be you could walk by somebody that's sleeping or whatever. And so her sister has a daughter. Her daughter's like seven or eight. We're walking down the street and I see her little daughter's to my left. I'm here. And then my wife and her sister to my right. And there's this homeless guy that's on this side, but her daughter's to my left. And so I, because I do this all, I even do this with my wife. I walked to her daughter's left to push her in between. And it was very subtle. And her sister later, she's like, I see what you did there. She's like, what are you talking about?

I said, I saw what you did. It's like, I saw my, because there was a guy laying on the ground and you didn't, you could, you didn't know if he was like playing possum or anything, but you just don't want to take a chance. And so she's like, I see what you did there. And I was like, I said, what do you mean? I said, I like what you did. Cause you got, cause she was just talking. Cause she's, you know, she's eight, nine years old. I went to her left and I just kind of like, I kind of nudged her back towards the inside of the group. 

And so, but I enjoy just when I think about that, I'm thinking about that. I'm everyone else. They could be like, hey, you want to go shopping at that nice store right there? And I'm thinking, OK, yeah, OK. And I got the perimeter and I'm turning around, looking around and stuff like that. So so it's not for me, it's not paranoia. For me, It's just like it's a responsibility that I have. And I, you know, I take it not seriously, but I take it like it's just it's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to be alert and you can enjoy doing your things, but that's my job. So, but anyway. 

Dr. Chloe: No, that's really interesting. You know, I'm always interested in that relationship between a person's natural propensities and then the jobs that they take. Like, for example, some lawyers, like they start off as saying like, yeah, I always love to argue. And then, you know, they became lawyers and they became really good at arguing. And so it's not like the law created this within them, but it develops something within them. So do you feel like you just naturally had that type of protective situational instinct even outside of growing up? And as you said, it sounds like maybe a bit of a rougher neighborhood in St. Louis. 

Ian: Yeah, I think it's a little bit of a nature-nurture type thing. Because I grew up so I think we've kind of talked about my dad is still alive, but I'm not I don't keep in contact with him. We talk very sparingly. But growing up, my mom was a was a single parent in my I have a sister. She's 12 years older than I am. Growing up, it was instilled in me. And I don't know. I'm going to limb. I could be wrong. I don't know if in black culture. In Black culture, the man of the house, you hear that a lot. And my sister would say, even being younger, she'd say, there's going to be a point where you're going to be the man of the house. And that was always instilled within me to be protective, to be a gentleman, to open the door, to be protective. And so that was kind of instilled for me as a kid. And she's like, hey, you're the man of the house. And I remember as a kid, I'm like, I'm eight. Yeah. You know, my sister would tell me that. So you're the man of the house. But I from an early age, it's like you're you're the protector. You're you're the man. Even though you're a kid now, know that you have a responsibility as you grow up. 

And that's kind of grown into today. And my wife, she'll say some things like when she first met my family, she said she would tell me, oh, I know why you got I know where you get that from now. Cause I would tell, I would do things and she'd say, why are you doing that? You know, every night before we go to bed last night, I check all doors and windows. I make sure everything is locked. I do a little, I do a sweep of the perimeter. That's a military term. And before I go to bed, cause I want to make sure if anything, if there's a failure, I want to make sure, I want to make sure that there's not a failure. And so that's the last, the buck stops with me type of thing. 

And so, um, I think to answer the question, not to belabor, it's part of that from a kid, it was always taught to me. And then I kind of embraced it. I was like, oh, okay, this is cool. And I don't mind doing that. And so now you're making me think of another story. 

Probably about 10 years ago, I was out with a friend, a lady, just before I got married, a lady friend that I was kind of – we were kind of dating. And then she asked me to come to one of her sporting events. It was a roller derby. And there was this guy. I didn't know at the time. He was a professional soccer player from the local Colorado team. And he was kind of like rubbing up against her friend. We were like sitting in the audience. We were watching the match. And I could see her friend was uncomfortable, but she was just really – she was frozen. She didn't want, she didn't, she told the guy to stop and he just kept being persistent. And then all of a sudden I just, you know, I took my hands on this guy. I didn't know the guy. I took him, put my hands on him and I just moved him away. And everyone stopped and just started to clap. And I was like, I didn't see a big deal in it. I just thought like, I see that she was, sometimes you can get so, um, so afraid. He's like, I told this guy to stop, rub it up against me. And then I think everyone else.

Dr. Chloe: He was rubbing up against you? 

Ian: No, of the girl. Yeah. I'm sorry. I kind of get tongue tied. So I took him from this side and I put him to my right because that got him away. And I was like, I was surprised. Like, why didn't anybody do anything? And everyone's like, everyone starts clapping.

And then till this day, I'll see somebody that was like, hey, I remember you, that guy from the, that professional soccer player. I didn't know who he was. I just thought, I was like, why? It's so inappropriate. And she looks uncomfortable. And so it was just like, it's an instinct in getting back to what I've been taught. You know, it's like, sometimes you have to be brave and do something. And I didn't ask permission. I just said, you know, she's telling you not to stop rubbing against her. And, you know, just took him by the shoulders and moved him over. And I think he might have been drunk, too. He kind of sobered up. But I think things like that as the protector, being raised to be a protector is something that it's been instilled in me. And I just, you know, I take it seriously. 

And, you know, sometimes I'll see situations and I'll just act. You know, my wife will be out somewhere and I'll say something. I'll see somebody needs some help and I'll jump up and say, where are you going? I'll be right back and I'll go help somebody, you know, dependent, just realizing that sometimes people just don't have time to say, hey, I need your help. Hey, I'm in danger. I need your help. Sometimes you just have to when you're situationally aware, you can you can you notice those cues. 

But if you're just like, oh, OK, you know, and then something happens and like, how did I not see that happen? It's like you have to be engaged with your environment the entire time. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, it's an interesting topic, though, too, because, I mean, I think everything that you're describing is great. And it sounds like the people in that crowd with their applause that they really reacted well to it. But what troubles me sometimes is I see men, you know, stepping up to protect and to help in those types of situations, whether it's in that way or, you know, just being gentlemanly in other ways. And sometimes I see men in those situations being labeled as toxically masculine or mansplaining, you know, or being persecuted in some way, like as if what they're doing is wrong. So I'm just wondering if you've ever experienced anyone that wanted to kind of be unappreciative and mislabel you in that way. 

Ian: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I, a lot of times I felt when I would do things, it would be unappreciated. But then I thought, I had a mentor tell me, sometimes you just have to do things because it's the right thing to do. And you let them deal with that. Whatever's going on, you're like, hey, I didn't need your help. And I was like, you know, I'm sorry. I didn't have time to ask you. There's this dangerous situation.

And that's on them. You can't control how other people... Because I used to feel bad. I was like, man, I'm trying to be a good person. But then at the end of the day, that's on them. That's what they're dealing with. If you feel in your heart that you're doing the right thing, those times where I took action, I felt I don't have time to ask the girl that's... she looks petrified. Let me act first. And then... if she's mad, she said, oh, I wanted him to rub up against me. Yeah. And the thing was…

Dr. Chloe: Ian, bring him back please.

Ian: Yeah, yeah exactly there were there were 10 people in that group yeah and everyone was just like, it's like, it's almost like the group thing. No one wanted to respond. And I'm thinking, I'm looking around i'm like okay something needs to be done. The toxic masculinity part

If someone has said, you know, she didn't need your help. I was like, well, you know, I apologize. But I feel better that at least I did. 

I feel like my experience, you know, I have enough experience to where I can read a situation and I'll get involved. You know, there's times where there may be a situation where it's too dangerous. And I'm like, you know, I have to weigh the pros and cons. You know, I have a hierarchy of danger. If it's my wife, I'm going to risk my life. You know, I didn't mean to rhyme that way. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah, but it makes sense. 

Ian: Yeah, if it's my wife, I'm going to risk my life if it's loved ones. Now, if it's a total stranger, I have to weigh the risk-reward type thing. You know, it's like, hey, I'm going to risk my life, but I don't know this person. And, you know, there's just a, you know, you look out for your family, family first. And I'm going to, I'm going to be helpful, but I'm going to be smart about it. And if somebody thinks I'm toxic, I've learned, I used to let that worry bother me. And then now I'm like, okay, I know who I am. I know my intent. If you're going to yell at me for saving your life or getting you out of a situation, I can deal with that. But if you die, I can't live with that guilt. If it's like, hey, I could have did something. I could have saved that person's life. And then, you know, worried about someone calling me. 

I've been yelled at before, you know, being a military, you get, I mean, you mess up, you get yelled at, and then you just get immune to it. And you're just like, okay, all right. There's nothing being yelled at it can't kill you. And so, that's how I deal with the toxic masculinity. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah, and it sounds like you were able to adopt that attitude in part because your mentor told you, hey, you can't worry about that too much, which I just want to highlight as a marker of a high-functioning person is that high-functioning people will oftentimes seek out a mentor and then be a coachable mentee, right? 

It's really interesting. Sometimes people think that high-functioning people don't read self-help books, don't have mentors because they're high-functioning, so they have it all figured out, whereas actually the opposite is true. In my experience, high-functioning people are actually the most likely to to be seeking people who are doing something better than they are in some area or who have some wisdom or knowledge that they don't. 

And then they want to learn from those people or those resources. And then they are willing to be flexible and apply those new ideas and grow. So that's great that that's what you did there. Your story also, it kind of reminded me, I don't know if you followed the Daniel Penny case in New York. Are you aware of him?/

Ian:  Yeah, yeah refresh my own site. Yeah, the name sounds familiar. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah. So he's one of your brothers in the military. I believe he was a Marine. What was your branch? 

Ian: I'm an army.

Dr. Chloe: Okay so I believe he's a marine and he is, in fact, he could probably still use a lot of support out there. So, you know, prayers to Daniel Penny. He was on a New York City subway and a man came on, you know the story now. 

Ian: Yeah.. I remember, you know, I look at that. There's so it's like peeling an onion. There's the, there's the racial element with that. 

Dr. Chloe: Sorry, before you go into that, I just want to recap quickly so that anybody who doesn't know, and then I want to hear your thoughts, but yeah, it's a quick story about 

Daniel Penny, who, as Ian alluded to, that there is a racial component. Daniel Penny happens to be white. He was a Marine that was on a New York City subway. And I believe it was a black assailant, we'll call him, who got on the train and I believe was actually verbalizing, I could kill someone today. Like, you know, he was being openly menacing, getting into people's spaces. I think he started to get physical with some of the people on the train. And one of the victims actually was, to your point about the racial component, was a black woman who has expressed incredible gratitude. She wasn't upset at all. So Daniel Penny, you know, put this man in a kind of like a chokehold or something like he and another gentleman on the train. And this gentleman died.But I'm not sure that it actually had to do with what Daniel Penny did. And so now he's up on some kind of maybe murder charges or something. So that's the recap. Ian, I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

Ian: Yeah, so that was a very good recap. It was better than I would have dig. A lot of times when I'm talking to my wife, I'll say something and I'll forget to say the name or a detail. And then I'll say it. I'll say, oh, okay, I got it. But in that case, the assailant, the black gentleman, I don't know if you knew this. He was, he had had many years of mental, he had some mental issues in his family. They reached out and I'm not a hundred percent sure if his, his family could have helped him out. And so, and he was a, he was a Michael Jackson impersonator. He did like street shows where they would do that, but he kind of deteriorated over the years. And so he was known to the public and even I think it even to some police that that he would just have these outbursts. 

And if you're a woman, you know, diminutive in stature, and you see this guy that's being very aggressive, and you know he has some mental instability, you don't have time to like, hey, you know, hey, oh, you know, I'm okay, you know, leave me alone. And it's being very aggressive. And as men, we see this and we're like, okay, I can let this go on. And this lady, she gets assaulted. And then the lady's like, why did no man help me out? And then in this case, you have men that they jumped in and they helped. And I think Daniel Penny put it, I know in jujitsu, not jujitsu. Yeah. Brazilian jujitsu, there are different chokeholds that you can do. I think just being in that being very aggressive and trying to stop this guy. 

And it just, I think the racial component is kind of, it's kind of making it more. I think that's probably why he got charged too, because people in the community say, well, he was racist. If he hadn't, he choked him because he's black. And then it's like, like you said, the lady was very appreciative and they're trying to. 

Dr. Chloe: The black lady that he was protecting. 

Ian: Yeah. Yeah. And so you have people that, dealing with people that are mentally unstable that are in public. And if the police don't get involved, you can't always wait for the police. There's a saying, many times you are your first responder. Someone breaks into your home, you are your first responder. Someone tries to carjack you, you are your first responder because by the time you call, you're just calling on people to take down notes of whatever. 

Dr. Chloe: Do the paperwork. Yeah. 

Ian: Yeah. So it's after the fact. So, but yeah, it's, it's a really unfortunate situation for him. I think he's being used as he's being used as a scapegoat in this situation. The alternative it would have been, the insults against him saying, why don't you help out? He could have did that. And he'd be a free man him another guy be a free man today. 

Dr. Chloe: I know. And you know, New York city then went through this horrible thing, this incredible spree of men walking around, punching women in the face. I mean, it was just like this spree yeah and women were complaining and they were saying, why are men not stepping in to help us, which, hey, I get it. I totally get that. I would feel the same. I happened to have left New York City in 2020, but I lived there for about 20 years. And thankfully for me, I always felt pretty safe most of the time, though, interestingly, I my most frightening experiences in New York City all occurred on subways. I mean, it is a dangerous place. It's like you're locked in this car and there's no way out. And so it can be very frightening when somebody decides that they're going to take advantage of the situation. But thankfully, I wasn't in New York during the time of the punching women spree. 

So women, I could understand why they were irked that nobody was coming to their defense. But at the same time, it was actually women a lot of times, just in general broad brushstrokes that were calling Daniel Penny toxically masculine and labeling him as racist and all these things. And so I feel like men are in such a bind. And so that's why I was curious how you… have obviously managed to continue being yourself and remain unbothered. It's a great thing to see. 

Ian: It's not easy. I'm not going to lie and be like, oh, it's so easy. I have to weigh situations. That's why if we're out and about, if I'm with my wife, we're out and about. There was an incident. Actually, let me go back. There was an incident. My wife and I, we went somewhere. We stopped at a gas station. And there were six men standing outside this it was a 7-Eleven. And I pulled up and parked and I went inside. And I thought, these guys could jump me. Because it was just, the situation would just didn't feel right. Long story short, I went in. And they were just, like, hanging out. And I got in the car. And I told my wife. It was my fiance at the time, I said, you know, I'm never going to do this again because against my better judgment, I walked inside and the people just, it's just unnatural for people to be hanging out in front. It was like they were waiting for something. 

And, you know, I, they probably were just trying to, they were looking for a good opportunity and against my will, against my judgment, I walked inside. And so a lot of times getting back to situational awareness, I told my wife, if we're in that situation again, I'm never going to, if we have to stop, if we stop somewhere and we see that we're going to go somewhere else because it's not worth it. I think I went to get a drink or something. And so getting back to the helping out, you know, women saying, Oh, you're toxic or whatever. I've seen situations where men have helped a guy's helping a lady. She's in this, she's being attacked. And then he ends up getting killed because he's trying to help her out. And then the lady just runs away or the person helping out gets beat up. And she's like, oh, well, you didn't, you didn't have to help me out. I mean, I had it under control. And so it's just, it's, I think we've created an environment where it's just, you know, men, they want to help, but it's like, okay. Part of it is just like, Hey, are you going to be appreciative of me helping? Because I'm putting myself in danger too. And I'm not doing it because I want anything. I just, hey, thank you. Thank you for walking me out of that situation. 

Dr. Chloe: And certainly not to turn around and, you know, in the case of Daniel Penny, the poor man, he's being smeared as a racist. He's, you know, all these terrible things. So, yeah, I mean, to have somebody not only not appreciate you, but to potentially denigrate you and, you know, belittle or drag your name through the mud or file a report to HR, you know, like if it's like a professional situation. So, yeah. And I can totally understand that. And it sounds like one of the ways that you keep it clear in your head is you said you have kind of a hierarchy, which makes sense, you know, because if, I mean, I, it sounds, you know, politically incorrect to say, but I mean, if a woman's walking around at, you know, two in the morning and, you know, she's half naked and, you know, surprise, you know, she's getting some cat calls, you know. 

I might feel differently as a man about kind of jumping to that woman's defense than I would if it were, you know, two in the afternoon and it's a woman who's, you know, dressing in a way that isn't socially signaling a broadcast of interest, you know, and she's being harassed, I might view that differently. And I feel like it's such a taboo thing to say. 

And I don't mean that a woman at two in the morning half naked deserves to have anything bad happen to her. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that. I mean, in the example I'm talking about, I'm just talking about, I would say verbal harassment. But I guess then that's the question is, you know, one person's harassment is another person's welcome attention. And so I can understand that if a woman is walking around at two in the morning, half-naked, men might assume that she is interested in connection in some way, and they're just making their move, you know? So I really, I wish it weren't such a taboo thing to say.

Ian: Yeah, I think people know intuitively what message they're broadcasting. I'll give you an example. I wanted to get my wife something. It wasn't very revealing, but I wanted to get her some... My wife has a nice figure. I'll just be very... She had a nice figure. And I wanted to get her something really nice, but it was a little bit more form-fitting. And she's like, no, I appreciate it. I just I don't want to have that. And she's like, I like her for that. And so a lot of times she a lot of times she'll be the person to tell me, no, I don't feel like this. Oh, it just makes my butt, you know, my butt look too big or something or I don't want that kind of attention. 

And she even told me one time she was with her her dad and her cousin and and they wanted to buy her something. And then she's like, no, I just don't feel comfortable. That just getting back to the, I think people intuitively know what brings attention onto themselves. And it's like, you know, I agree with you. We're not saying you deserve this because you wore this. You're not saying it, but that you have to be smart. You know, you have to be, you know, I'm a, I go to bed by nine or 10 o'clock. You know, I just can't stay up late like I used to. 

Dr. Chloe: Same. 

Ian: Yeah. So I'm not going to be out at two o'clock. You know, there's rare times. And then the times that my wife and I, we go out late, we get back. We were like, man, that was it for this month. You know, that was like, that was the one time we were going to do staying out late, but you wouldn't catch me out at two o'clock in the morning, just hanging out because it just invites trouble. There's this one – Denzel Washington has this saying. He says, you have to know to leave the party 30 minutes before the devil shows up. And I was like, that's pretty deep. You know, before you know when it's getting – the conditions are getting bad, you have to be clear and free. You don't want to be associated with the negativity or the danger. And it's just – I make sure when we go out places, my wife will ask me, what's the temperature going to be? What's the neighborhood? She knows I do this research. We go out, I'll do a Google search. We're going in this neighborhood. What's the crime? What's the weather going to be? I do all these things because I'm weighing the risk-reward. Is it worth really going to this shady neighborhood? We can just tell whoever that invited us, we're going to take a rain check. We'll make up something. We'll just say, Hey, we're going to spend some time, time at home. So. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah. You know, I mean, and again, I, as a woman have been out by myself occasionally, you know, at odd hours of the night for one reason or the other, probably not half naked, you know, but I, and I just I want to say as well, I understand. I'm imagining somebody listening and saying, well, hey, you know, you don't know, like maybe maybe she had a terrible fight with her boyfriend and he kicked her out. And, you know, that woman needs help, you know, and I get that. And so I don't have like a hard and fast, you know, rule about this stuff. But I just think that we also have to understand that human beings have to sometimes make a

rapid, you know, assessments. And when we know that crime goes up in the wee hours of the morning, and, you know, we know that dressing in a half naked manner is just, it's simply a social signal that signals to people that you're literally attempting to attract attention to yourself. 

And, you know, people can say like, well, hey, I dress this way for myself. And that may be fine, but i believe it's because yourself enjoys the attention of other people. Or I don't know, like I just I don't believe that a person is that socially oblivious. I don't think that people want to be seen as socially oblivious. And so like you you know that that's what you're doing. 

And so I guess I just, I see it almost the same way as like, if a person recklessly spends all of their money and they don't put a lot of care or thought themselves into their financial security, and then they have a financial emergency, and they say to their neighbors, hey, help me, I had a terrible thing happen and I need help. I feel like the neighbors would regard it differently than a person who was taking care of themselves and was making plans for themselves, but some terrible misfortune befell them. 

I guess I think it's kind of the same way if a woman is, you know, obviously being careful with herself and being thoughtful with herself and then, you know, bad men come upon her, you know, it's like a different situation than a woman who herself doesn't appear to be taking a lot of thought or precaution about it, you know? And again, I really struggle with it, but one of the things that, one of the reasons I'm saying it anyway, even though I know it is, you know,

I think very taboo to say is because I'm doing a lot of work about the mental health benefits of free speech. 

I think that there's been such a squashing of saying anything, you know, that doesn't, that could be clipped and put into a certain context or that somebody could judge you or they could give you a caveat. And I, like I said, there's plenty of caveats, you know, and again, I'm not saying anything bad just, you know, should, should happen to anybody, but I also just, as you said, I mean, men risk their lives when they intervene to stand up for women. And so you have to, I think it's a very valid thing that a man might appraise the situation, including what social parts of herself the woman is broadcasting about herself by her presentation and the time and location in which, you know, she is appearing. 

I found the more that we hold things back, the less clearly we can think. It's been actually amazing to me. I started speaking up openly for the first time, saying anything that could be politically incorrect when I started talking about the harms of masking children. And it was amazing to me how I noticed my thought process on that topic, as well as even other topics, got more clear and I thought well duh like as a psychologist I should know this that verbalizing things helps to solve problems and it helps us to think rationally and objectively about our thoughts and it helps us to elaborate on good ideas and even notice and discard bad ideas like when we say something a lot and we're like you know what that actually doesn't sound right let me take that back. But if we don't get to say it and talk about it we I believe we still

stunt our own thought process. So that's why I'm trying to be bold here. 

Ian: Yeah. And just to piggyback on your, your boldness that helps someone else become braver when they see you speak out on mask. And they're like, you know, I always wanted to say something, but everybody gets canceled anytime they talk about that. Cause I think I'm trying to remember where I heard that. It's just like when one person stands up and, you don't realize the power that you have when you do something like that, because someone else was like, man, Dr. Carmichael, man, she's, I didn't know she, I thought she was just like everybody else. They were like six feet, you know, you have to maintain six feet and you got to wear a mask, got to do all this stuff. But she's like, Hey, what if, what if this isn't true? And we're finding out what the six feet thing, you know, they were asking in some, I think it was some congressional thing, and they were like, where did the six feet thing come from? They were like, well, we don't know. It was just some arbitrary thing. I was like, are you serious? And then you're finding out about the mask. You know, the particles, when you sneeze, there's so many, I think it's called Micron or something. It's so tiny. It's smaller. Depending on the type of mask you wear, you know, the little bandana that you got from the gas station, It's not going to stop it. 

So being able to speak and like, hey, let's have a discussion. OK, we know that this virus, this thing is real. What makes sense? Let's have a discussion. Let's have a debate. Let's not squash people because some people are asking questions because I may have you know, I may have a relative that's dying. I want to go see him. And the hospital is saying, you can't see them because of the X, Y, and Z. I'm like, wait a minute. You know, I may be the last person that they see. You know, I want to give them some comfort. And you tell me I can't see a loved one. 

So, but what you're doing, being brave, you know, I think everybody reaches a point where they're like, you know what? I'm tired of just following everyone like sheep. I'm going to be brave. And then someone else sees you. Like, I don't know if I told you this. I get messages on Facebook. They'll see me post something. They're like, man, you are so brave. I say, why? I say, I like what you posted, but I can't say the same thing you say. And Devil's Advocate, everyone is in a different situation. They may work for some Fortune 500 company and they want to keep their job. And so they feel like, hey, I can't. I'm glad you post what you post. But I could, I can't do that. And I, I get those, I get those messenger messages, you know, probably once, once a month where somebody will say something and I was like, I'm glad you post this because I've changed my perspective on it. 

Cause I, you never see, you never see that until someone becomes brave, but, but everyone has a point. So, um, so yeah, but it's good that you did that with the, with the mask. 

Dr. Chloe: Well, thank you. Yeah. As what you said about, you said you weren't sure where that you had heard it, but that even just hearing one person, you know, kind of talk about the emperor's new clothes, so to speak, can make the other people say, hey, you know what? I don't think he's wearing clothes either, you know, or whatever it is. What is it with me and half naked you know, references today but the the psychology behind that too is actually it's i was this is part of this talk I gave recently um for the Open Therapy Institute about the mental health benefits of free speech.

And so I, as part of my research, came across this very interesting piece of information that relates to what you were saying about the importance of even one person speaking out. Because in Groupthink, which, you know, you probably know what it is, but just in case anyone may not know what it is, it's this kind of psychology phenomena that they say it was responsible for a lot of political disasters, like the Bay of Pigs, or even some issues related to the explosion of the Challenger Shuttle. Just things that shouldn't have happened, where there were kind of obvious problems that could have been spotted, but you had this kind of group of people that were all moving along on a project and certain ideas became almost like sacred cow, unchallengeable ideas. 

And so the group just kind of zombie walks forward into these awful, terrible situations that are plain and obvious, but the group think is almost just blinding them to this. And so the way that this relates to what you were saying about the power of one person speaking up, is that one of the essential components of groupthink, so a psychologist named Irving Giannis, coined the term groupthink in 1972, reviewing actually the Bay of Pigs disaster. 

And there were eight conditions, symptoms of groupthink. And one of them, interestingly, is self-censorship, which is one of the reasons why I'm so about it as far as speaking out. And then another one of them is is the Illusion of Unanimity. So when you're in the group and you think that everybody else agrees with this, then you can be less likely yourself to speak out so that one person that does speak out breaks the illusion of unanimity and helps other people to feel like they can talk. 

And one of the things that I thought of about this right away when I learned about this, is social media, when you have, say, a social media company that is suppressing any view that doesn't match their particular narrative, and then simultaneously boosting and falsely kind of pushing and inflating in the algorithms viewpoints that fit their narrative, then they can create a false sense of social consensus, or as, you know, Groupthink would call it the illusion, keyword illusion, of unanimity. So you're absolutely right there, Ian, I think, about noticing that when people do speak up, it punctures that feeling that some people may have of feeling like they're the only one that is thinking something. And then maybe they feel like they can say it too. And I'll say one more thing about this because I just find it so interesting. This whole idea of the way that we can get so off track when nobody else is speaking up. There's a really interesting psychology experiment by, I think his name is Daniel Ash, I believe from the 70s or the 80s. And it was so interesting. 

They would have these two lines on a piece of paper, line A, clearly longer than line B. And they would get a room of 15 people together and And all but one of those people were actually members of the study. And so it was decided in advance that when they said, which line is longer, A or B, even though line A was longer, everybody in the room says line B. And then sure enough, the other person in the room starts saying, yeah, line B is the longest. And it's that power of the group. So we've got to speak up. 

Ian: Yeah. No, it's so important. You made me think there was another, I graduated, I was like a psychology major, but I haven't reached your level. So I'm just like the, just the basic tier of psychology. There was this experiment. It was a, it was in a doctor's office where people came into the office and there was everyone, there was, you know, several people were part of the study or part of the group that was trying to influence the study. And then you have a random person walks in the office, sits down, and they have this beep that goes off. Every time the beep went off, everyone stood up. And then the person that just came in, they just like, okay, I stood up. And then another beep, they sat down. And that went on every time a new person came in until all the people that were part, that were the actors per se, they were out. But the people that were trained, anytime a beep would come on, everyone stood up. another beep, everyone sat down. And then they changed it to where a beep would go off and but they didn't have these parameters. But you had one person, maybe you had one person that did it. And slowly people started doing that, doing the standing up for the beep. And they're like well why is everyone standing up? And so it's just, I think you can replicate that. You can do several, several things with it but I  just thought it was uh it's just fascinating. 

And it's, even when you know better, it's hard to, it's hard to like, man, I don't want to seem like the oddball, you know, like, and you're just like, I know, even when you intellectually know that I know I shouldn't be doing this, but I just want to get through this. I just want to get through this one moment because I got to be somewhere. I'll just deal with it for five minutes and people start rationalizing. I'll just deal with it for five minutes. I'll just deal with it for five hours. And then, I'll just deal with it for a week. And you don't realize that. You don't realize that you you know better, but you just like you just it's hard to that's the peer pressure, peer pressure on another level.

Dr. Chloe: No, you are so right. And it's interesting. And I feel like you should have an honorary psychology Ph.D. or something, because it's interesting that you use that word rationalization.

that people can say, well, gee, I'll just deal with it for five minutes, just for this time, that time. And I did that too, where I said, oh, I'll just get through this PhD program. I just kind of say what the professors want and be done with it. And then like, oh, just say what the media wants and hold the other parts back. I never said anything in the media that I thought was untrue. I did in graduate school, just because they knew which answers they wanted to hear on the exams. But in the media, I never said anything untrue. Never talk about any topic where I knew that my opinions would burn the bridges with them. 

But about the rationalization thing, again, that you used of when we do that, when we say, well, just for this or just for that. Collective rationalization is actually another one of Yanis' symptoms of groupthink. So you are exactly right to spot that and to link that into the conversation. So thanks for that. 

So Ian, I know that we are, you know, running very short on time already, of course. So I know, you know, we're always going to run out of time. But I wanted to just ask you one one last question in closing. And then of course, you can share anything else, you know, that you wanted to share as well. But I wanted to ask you, since you shared about your service in the military, and thank you for your service. I know one of the hardest things that people do is when they come out of the military to fit back into regular life. And even though probably most people that listen may not be doing that exact thing, I still think that we can learn a lot from you in terms of just how you did that, because there's going to be other parallels in people's lives where they have to go through a sudden change or whatever.

And so can you tell us about that part of your life, if you don't mind, please? 

Ian: Yeah, it's the day that I retired from the military. I remember after the ceremony, I'm walking outside. I was like, I'm a civilian. I'm walking in my uniform. And it felt like I just got off of a, you ever get on a treadmill and you're like running fast and then you get off and you're like that, that sensation is gone. I literally felt that I'm off the treadmill. Not that it was a good or bad thing. I'm like, man, what am I going to do? Because my life for 20 years, a little bit over 20 years and some change, was very regimented. You had to be at a formation. You had to be at this meeting at 0900. Everything was in military time. When I try to use those terms now, if I say 1400 to somebody, people are like, what is that? Can you speak English? I'm like, okay, 2 p.m.,

And I tried to still use some of those terms. 

So the transition, it took a while because I wanted to see my, I wanted to still do things militarily. I wanted to talk militarily. And there's some colloquialisms, hopefully I said that right, that you use in the military that just, you know, squared away. Saying something that's squared away in the military means something different to a civilian or each service has like this, it's not a war cry, but it's just like an answer. It's like, how are you doing? You're like, cool. I was like, do you, do you like, do you like the weather? Cool. And it's just like, it's not even a, it's like a one word answer. And so the transition, it took me some time to transition from thinking militarily to just adjusting to civilian life. 

And the camaraderie is one thing that I do miss. I miss the camaraderie. I don't miss the BS. Even in the military, as an officer, the higher rank you get up, there's a lot of politics. That's something I didn't like. Even though I keep up with politics, I don't like being a part of it, being part of that culture. So, yeah, so it's taken me, you know, it's taken me some time to, to adjust. And, and then when I see other people in the military, I can interact in a military type, uh, type of way.  I've learned not to be as regimented when I, when I interact with people. Hopefully that answers the question. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah. Yeah. So just to, to recap that, I think the three main takeaways I got from that was, first of all, that you were patient with yourself. You said, okay, it's going to take some time. And then number two, you were open with yourself about the fact that there were certain things that you wanted to retain from the military and you were intentional about that. And then thirdly, you decided to be intentionally flexible about about recognizing there are certain things I'm going to keep from that experience, but there are other things that I'm going to be more flexible about. And by labeling those things, I think that makes a lot of sense. I feel like when people don't do that, they can get really black and white about it and feel like they have to let go of the old thing completely. 

And then they like secretly try to hang on to it because they're not giving themselves permission to just notice certain parts and continue them. And when people do that, like you did, I think it frees them to say, to feel secure, to say, I'm not going to lose that time. I've even got certain things I'm going to bring onward. And then that frees you to clear some space for what's next. So thanks for sharing that, Ian. That's really helpful. 

Ian: That was a good summary. You're really good at that. I was like, man, that was pretty good. 

Dr. Chloe: Well, Hey, you're the one who provided the material. So thanks for that. Yeah

Ian: Being able to summarize that's, that's pretty good. So yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Chloe: Well, thanks again, Ian. It's so good to see you. And if I'm in Colorado, I'll definitely look you up. And if you're in the Florida area, let me know. 

Ian: Sure. Definitely. Well, thank you. Thank you for the call.