Jim McCann, Founder and Chairman of 1-800Flowers.com

Episode 19

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I'm super excited to introduce my next guest! My next guest almost doesn't need an introduction. His name is Jim McCann. He is the Founder and Chairman of 1-800-Flowers. Jim has such an interesting story. He started out actually with a career in social services, and then, I learned some of this just by reading his book, he was actually being a bartender to help to support his family. And through that, he came across the opportunity to buy a business and he knew he wanted to buy a business, and the business he happened to come across the opportunity to buy was a flower business. From there, the rest is somewhat a history of now 1-800-Flowers.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I personally was privileged to connect with Jim through the Entrepreneurs Organization where I'm a member. And one thing led to another and he invited me to be on his Connectivity Council, which is three people I think we're all psychologists, and he gives us the chance to share some thoughts that we have with him. And so today I got to turn the tables on Jim and ask him to share some thoughts with me. I was so privileged to have this conversation, and I really mean that! I hope that you enjoy the conversation and I'm certainly looking forward to it. So without further ado, here is Jim McCann, the Founder and Chairman of 1-800-Flowers.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Jim, it is so great to see you. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me here today.

Jim McCann: How have you been?

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I've been very well. How was your Father's Day?

Jim McCann: Only perfect.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I bet. Would you mind sharing a little bit about it?

Jim McCann: Sure. I have three kids and six and a half grandkids. We have a beach house at East End of Long Island and everybody was there yesterday, and everybody checked in, cooked. And my granddaughter, who's 12, led the way with leading several of the other grandkids in baking a cake for last night and decorating them with M&M's and it was delicious. So it was a perfect day. Everyone around the house, in and out in the pool. There's only one fight that was among dogs.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: All right, sounds perfect!

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I loved the article that you shared on LinkedIn about fathers. And I know one of the things that's been on your mind is fathers and their involvement post-pandemic, that of course, during the lockdowns fathers were home and involved more. You have been thinking about how that might carry over potentially post-pandemic, is that true?

Jim McCann: Well, we've been looking, Dr. Chloe, at the impact of this enormous event called the pandemic, COVID pandemic, and its impact on so many things. Once you have a big shake like that, this is logically and predictably going to be a lot of different aftershocks. So maybe it's a coping mechanism, but my team and I here at Flowers (1-800-Flowers) have been looking at what are the different possibilities in terms of the short-term and long-term changes in how we do things, view things and what behaviors change short and long-term. And one that we were focused on leading up to this past weekend, Father's Day weekend, was what impact does it have on the role of fathers? The COVID experience has been very, very bad for a lot of people. Obviously a lot of people got sick. At this point, more than 600,000 people in this country alone lost their lives, and the average number of people they leave behind is nine. So nine times 600,000 is an awful lot of people who are hurting and grieving.

Jim McCann: But then, on the other side of it, to be analytical about it, not all of the impact has been as devastating and painful as it has been on the obvious in so many. One of the benefits of those people who could continue to work, but work remotely, it's had a profound change on their lives, and one of the changes, logically, would be, if they're fortunate enough to have children, they saw a lot more than children in the last year and a half then than they previously would have without the impact of the pandemic. So what changes does it have in terms of, let's look at those fortunate families that have two parents in place and generally a healthy situation, the income to support themselves, and while it's not everybody, it's a lot of people. And we see it in our lives every day and it causes us to wonder, how will roles change going forward? As employers we have to anticipate, how do we get people back into a more normal flow in the workplace? And the two phrases that will survive the pandemic will be, you're still on mute, and the other is hybrid. Everything's going to be hybrid in some way or another.

Jim McCann: So it's interesting for us to try and look and imagine and guess as to what the changes would be. And because we just went through Mother's Day, which is a quite important holiday for us as a floral and gift company, and Father's Day, we started saying, “Okay, beyond the obvious, what changes might come here?” We've been asking those questions. So let me turn it to you, you're the professional, you're someone we turn to to get insights and to develop a point of view around how we as a community can help one another. How do you see the role of dads changing as a result of this experience we've all collectively had?

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well, Jim, that's such an interesting question. And it has been such an honor to be on your Connectivity Council. I'm not surprised that you are thinking in such a reflective way about this. I think something people don't necessarily know about you is that you were a social worker before you became a business tycoon, right? And so just that level of reflection and emotional intelligence and family-thinking that you bring to the table is incredible. And I'll answer your question, just my thoughts about that subject, but I have so many other questions for you too, Jim. I'm so excited for the chance to ask you questions. But my quick thoughts on that are that, I know that even for me as a mom, the pandemic offered me a whole new perspective, it pulled the plug on a lot of my running-around activities. Honestly, it was a blessing in disguise for me. As you said, it was a tragedy in many ways for many people, and this is a separate comment of course from that, but just for me and my personal life as a very career driven person, having permission to stay home has changed me. I've stopped taking new individual clients, largely. And my husband as well, obviously, his running-around everything changed. And it's been wonderful to have him at home, and to discover things that technology and the things that we can do.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I would love to ask you though, as well, Jim, yourself as a father, what was like for you in building a business in those early years? Because one of the things that I think sometimes dads actually get a bad rep on is that dads are oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes are the providers in their family. So then, when the dad is at work, working and providing for the family, somehow that doesn't always get counted as childcare or contributing into the home and supporting the family. And so one of the things I'm oftentimes trying to help families and fathers and mothers and everybody understand is that, when dad is at work and at the office, he's not on a fantasy football game, he's working to help out the family.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: So I'm curious, Jim, when your children, your three wonderful children were young, do you mind sharing about that from your perspective?

Jim McCann: Well, I'll give you some insight. It was a conversation I had with one of my kids yesterday. We started our business early, and yes, my first career was in social services. I worked at and then ran a home for teenage boys. It was a wonderful and educational experience for me. And I didn't come from means, but I knew I wanted to provide a good living for my wife and kids, so I was always doing things. I wasn't smarter than anybody else, but willing to work longer and harder than most anybody else. And in the early years when we started out on a flower shop, when I say full-time, it was a seven day a week commitment.

Jim McCann: Our shops were open long hours, seven days a week. And it was hard to expect them to run without being there. So my wife and I tried to work together in the very beginning of the business, but we started a family very young. And so we decided early on, that's not going to work. You take care of the kids, you take care of the house, you take care of the family, and that'll free me up to be a crazy person in terms of work. And I do have some guilt around the fact that I don't think I was there enough for the kids in their earliest years, because I was just out and working all the time. My son told me yesterday that he's heard me say that before, and he disagrees. He said, “I felt like you were there. I didn't ever have a sense that you weren't there enough". The good news is our office and our shops were quite close to where I live. So I'd be in and out, so I could make it to a ball game, or at least some part of a ball game for the kids. And they expected the big holidays that I wasn't going to be there, I just wasn't home at all. I have a sense of guilt about it, Dr. Chloe, but my kids tell me that they don't have the same sense in recollection.

Jim McCann: But what I do really appreciate and respect is that each of my kids, I think, is a very, very good parent. And their spouses, their partners they selected for life are all very good parents, too. And to see that yesterday with the six of them running around here, my wife and I talked about it last night when they left, that we’re just filled with pride that they're still nearby. We're blessed. How blessed are we that they keep moving closer? So maybe there's a high premium on quality babysitting services. But when I think of the earliest years, I think of my kids as better parents than I was. And they're much more involved in and around in their kids' lives than I was. And I think that's terrific.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Right. But I have to say though, I don't want you to carry around that burden of guilt because your kids, in contrast to you, because you shared that you didn't come from means, your kids are growing up and being parents in the context of having a parent who's already created significant security for the family. Right? I don't want to go down a sidebar, I don't mean to get too personal, but I hope that you don't carry around much guilt really because all of those things that you were doing were actually to build and create security for your family.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: To that point, I know another one of the things you did and kind of getting into another question I have for you, is you created jobs not only for many Americans but also for your own family. I know one of your brothers now is the CEO and another brother that had, if I am correctly phrasing it, he has some significant developmental disabilities and he wasn't able to just, cognitively, live independently like the rest of your siblings, but nevertheless, you were able to recognize an opportunity and create a foundation where he and many of his peers contribute to wholesale growing of flowers for 1-800-Flowers. So you've created a lot of jobs for your own family. I know you have a great rule that people have to have a job somewhere else before they can work for 1-800-Flowers, that your family members must have another job somewhere else, which is great. But I'm wondering if you can share, a lot of my listeners and my audience love business, I love business, we love families, I love families. One of the struggles that people in family businesses often run into is issues of entitlement or personality differences. I'm wondering if you can share some words of wisdom for those family businesses out there that want to have a happy story like Jim McCann's.

Jim McCann: Well, let me break that down. You machine gunned me there with a bunch.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I'm sorry!

Jim McCann: This is why I so enjoy our conversations, Dr. Chloe. But the first part of that, family and work. So the good news about being a small businessman that's had some success in growing a larger business is that, and being from the flower industry, oftentimes you'll find the florists are family businesses. And the reason for that is it's a crazy business. You have these peaks and valleys and huge demand spikes for the floral holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Valentine's, Easter, Secretary's Week, Mother's Day, Father's Day. So you have these big spikes. And who else can you get to work that hard, that many hours, than your family? Uncle Joe isn't going to take his personal day from his job at IBM to come deliver flowers to you on that Wednesday before Thanksgiving for just anybody, he's only going to do it for family and because he wants to get invited for Thanksgiving dinner. So that's why so many of my fellow florists operate family businesses. And no different in our family. My dad had his own business, he was a painting contractor. When my parents were alive, my mom worked in our flower business. All of my siblings did and now nieces and nephews and my own kids. So it was all hands on deck. So I think they learned about work and family commitment. Then when we finally get together for our celebrations, like on Mother's Day we might be very late at night on that Sunday, or even a week later when we recuperated. We couldn't help it, we talk shop.

Jim McCann: So I think my kids learned and my nieces and nephews, and certainly siblings, learned about business through osmosis. We all did. We were all learning together. And I think that that's a good, beneficial thing. I see the success of my siblings and their families and their kids. And I think a lot of that can be attributed to the fact that we worked in a family business environment, where it was a natural subject, a natural course of discussion. I think a lot of families don't have that benefit of learning about small business real time things, because you work in engineering and you come home and you don't really talk that much about work. And so your family isn't learning that aspect. They might learn other things and have wonderful discussions, but our family oftentimes it was about business and work. But we didn't want, you mentioned the word, entitlement, we didn't want our kids to come right into the flower business. So we said, you have to work while you're in school. You can work for us, but you don't have to. But then, after you finish school, you cannot work for us for at least five years. And what we said was, “We want you to go work somewhere else. We want you to achieve something else, an advanced degree or some success in your employment before you can even consider applying to come back”.

Jim McCann: We copied that from other successful families and that's served us well, Dr. Chloe, because our kids then went off and have other careers. So my daughter, my oldest, we recruited back at one time because she was running the e-commerce business for a very large department store. Not a lot of people had that talent. So when we were looking for someone to work in our e-commerce area, instead of someone with this kind of resume, my brother gave me the elbow and said, “you’re describing your daughter, Erin”. So we recruited her back. She's now a stay at home mom with three kids. And then my son came back about 10 years ago. He lived out West, he lived in the Midwest, he did a couple of startups. And then he started working for one of our companies in Chicago and did very well there. Finally we approached him and said, “Geez, do you think you'd like to come back to the New York area and play this role?”. And so he's the only one of the next generation that's in the business, until recently, when my brother Chris's daughter graduated from business school and went to work in a startup, and eventually we recruited her back too. So we have two of the next generation working in the business. But the rule is, no nepotism, you have to earn your own way. And because we're a public company and we have a great governance system and a very talented board of directors, we pay extra scrutiny to make sure they're not getting any undue consideration.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. I love that. I think that's smart from so many levels, not that it matters if I think it's smart, but I just have to say I do think it's really smart because I personally have sat with a lot of people that worked for their family business that did not have to jump through the hurdles that you make your family members jump through. And it's harder for those people because they personally always have this sense that, other people in the business kind of don't really respect them, or they might even personally not really fully respect themselves, that they have a lot of doubts about like “Would I have this job if it weren't for my family connections?”, and moreover, of course, for the sake of the customer to have the benefit of being serviced by a company where everybody is fully qualified. But for so many reasons, Jim, I just think that's wonderful that you guys do it the way that you do it.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Now, I have to keep moving on. I know you said I'm peppering you with questions. Normally I'm providing ideas as the Connectivity Council, and so this is my chance to ask you some questions. So here's my next question, Jim. I love your book by the way, I know you wrote a book and I love it. I got the chance to check it out and I love that it's available on audio book as well by the way, 'cause I think sometimes it's so nice to just listen to stories. But I loved hearing your story about the Chinese silk jacket and celebrating mistakes. I'm wondering if you would please share that story, and if you can tell me and my listeners, how do we know when it's time to pack it in and celebrate the mistake versus when it's time to get out our elbow grease and stick with it a little longer?

Jim McCann: Well, there is a question of the ages and the answer is, “I don't know”. But I'll tell you by example, a couple of situations that we've had. If you want to foster a culture of innovation, which my brother and I very much want to do here at Flowers (1-800-Flowers), you have to encourage people to take chances, to take risks. One of the things that we've benefited from as a company is some good fortune and persistent experimentation. So take it all the way back to our earliest days.

Jim McCann: So we've gone through what we would call five waves of our company. First was retail, store in stores. Second was acquiring a company that had the 800 telephone number. Changing the name of our company to 1-800-Flowers. That was phase two. Phase three, experimentation. In the five years after we acquired that telephone number, with no money we became a national brand and an innovator, and we changed how our little industry works. And we thought, me and my brother Chris who had recently graduated from university and came to work with me, and we were chatting about, “Well, if we could do this with no money and really no business experience, some other technology could come along and innovate us out”. And so we were always vigilant looking for what the next change in technology is going to be. And so we were doing lots of experiments with the new technologies, and the one we kept coming back to was this online world later to be called the internet. So we were very early, and we've benefited from being early because people would write about how we're doing things differently, and all of a sudden we just changed our name from 1-800-Flowers to 1-800-Flowers.com. So the third wave for us was the internet. And then the fourth wave for us was, this internet starts to mature and everything's about social and then mobile. And social and mobile aided and abetted each other. So that was a fourth wave, and we're going through the fifth wave right now, which is a maturation of the internet, giving birth to all this social media, mobile access, and commerce went from a purely transactional to conversational, and now what we call engagement commerce. We can possibly mimic the relationship we had 40 plus years ago with the 40 customers who made our shop on the Upper East Side of Manhattan really go, I mean the 40 people who really made the business go, well, today, there's 40 million. And the only way we can mimic those relationships is with effective use of technology and that technology is the social media tools that are available to us to really look to engage with our customers. So that's the arc of our development as a company.

Jim McCann: But back to you asking me about the silk jacket, we counted over 50 different experiments in technology alone that we went through while we were still investing in this internet thing in its earliest years. Things like, “Hey, we print out these catalogs, what if we put it on a CD ROM and mailed it to customers?”. Colossal failure. And we had 51 of those, but the 52nd was the internet which changed our lives. So we tell that story because we want to encourage our young people coming into our company today to be looking to take that next experiment. So the young team that had us be the first thing that you could do on Alexa before you could even buy from Amazon. And so we're proud of that, but there were 20 things that we tried that never got any attention. So we try and celebrate 'trial', not just success, because we scream out loud about our successes, but one of the things we do is talk about our own failures.

Jim McCann: So back 30 years ago or 20 years ago, there were shops popping up. I remember up in Quincy Market Faneuil Hall, there was a nice smart entrepreneur named Lucy. She had two little shops in this Quincy Market. One was Lucy's Have a Heart, and Lucy's Rainbow. And every gift item, every tchotchke item in that shop either had a rainbow in the rainbow shop or heart in the other shop. So it gave me the idea that maybe we could sell a lot more products as long as it had a flower on it. And I remember someone showed me this beautiful silk jacket for a lady, and it had this beautiful embroidered rose on the back of it. And I thought it was going to be a killer item. And we put it in the cover of a catalog and we sent it out to our customers and it bombed, it bombed! So we had one framed and hanging in our office all the time to remind people that this idiot thought it was going to be a great success. It was a bomb and the moths really enjoyed eating them up in the factory till we finally threw them all out. But we recently had that hanging in our office was to say to people, mistakes happen, we can make poor judgements, but what we do is acknowledge them, recover quickly and not just try to beat our heads against the wall to try and get people to buy the jacket who said, no, we just didn't buy it. So you have to know when to have a judgment about when to stop and call it a lesson learned, and celebrate your failure. And you just keep on going. And sometimes that's served us well, too. I was probably broke... I mean, really broke a half a dozen times in our first 10 years in business.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Wow!

Jim McCann: But I didn't lay down. I just was too afraid to fail so I just kept going. And I've been lucky, Dr. Chloe, to have in my life some great people that I've gotten to know and learn from and just went to for wisdom. One of the great entrepreneurs of all time, his name was Wayne Huizenga. Wayne Huizenga started five different, very different, Fortune 500 companies, including Waste Management, Blockbuster Video, Republic Industries, Auto Nation. So five different Fortune 500 companies he started pretty much from scratch. And I got to know Wayne and spent some time with him and hung on his every word. One of the things he said to me was, “Jim, the difference between you and I, and most other people we get to meet, is that we make at least as many mistakes as everybody else, probably more because we're more active, we're quicker to try things. But the difference between us, (and I was so privileged and proud that he'd be saying “us” that I was like him) the difference between them and us is that we get over it. We recover quickly. We pick ourselves up, we dust ourselves off and we get on with it. We don't wring our hands and say, ‘Oh, that horrible mistake, I'll never make that mistake again!’, because we probably will. But it's not about making mistakes, it's learning the lesson and getting on with it and recovering quickly.” And those words are ringing in my head today. So I can't tell you when you should keep on going, because we've done that. I can't tell you when you should say, cut your losses and take a lesson and get on with it, because we've done that too. But the key, learn your lesson and get over it, recover quickly, don't let it burn you.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I would agree 100%. One of the things I mentioned in my book is that when people catch themselves lapsing into a bad habit, the first thing they should do is congratulate themselves on their awareness of it. Because as you said, so many people, they just spiral into negativity. I love your vulnerability, Jim. Thank you for sharing with us that you went from almost were broke half a dozen times in the first 10 years, and that it's hard to know when to keep going, and when to recognize it as a silk jacket to put in a frame and to celebrate those mistakes. I love your vulnerability.

Jim McCann: We all know the phrase of the definition of insanity, you got to be careful not to do that too.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: It's true. We don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over, but we also don't want to have what psychologists call “Rejection Sensitivity” stop us from being willing to keep staying in the game. And as a Psychologist, it's something I see people do, and I don't always know the answer either, whether it be in business or also, frankly, in personal relationships, like people who are dating, sometimes they don't know when to keep trying and when to just move on.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I do have another final question for you though. I could ask you questions all day, but I know your time is limited, so I'll limit myself. You mentioned new technology, and of course, new technology is amazing. I know that you're very active on LinkedIn. I love watching you on LinkedIn. I don't see you as much as on Twitter and things like that. I'm curious, how do you, Jim, choose which platforms of social media you'll be active on? Have you had social? Like, did you try Twitter or Instagram? Have you ever tried them and then decided that they weren't for you, because I'll share with you, personally, and I know for many people these days, we feel like in some ways social media is a great way to get yourself out there and to network and to see and be seen. It can also be a huge time suck. How do you think about those questions for yourself?

Jim McCann: Well, the answer is a point in time situation. So yes, I'm interested in all social media in terms of the impact they have. Look what's happened in the last six to nine months in terms of Clubhouse, it's emergence. So I'll tap into people I know who know that platform well and how are they using it. So I'm curious, I'll ask a lot of questions. You and I have had this conversation about how you use social media to get your message out. And I just found that, for the moment, yes I've been on Facebook but I don't do anything business wise on it, I tend to just keep track of family and friends that way. Twitter, a little bit. I read more but I don't post very often there, but it's an open question and chatting with folks in our shop about should we view that differently.

Jim McCann: But LinkedIn, because it's a business platform, and because it has that natural filter, I feel more comfortable engaging with people there because it is already a preformed sense of community, common set of interests and connectivity there. It's been very, very interesting for me because I'm interested in the engagement, not just “here's what we think” but then the feedback you get from that. LinkedIn seems to lend itself to that quite effectively. And so you and I have had that conversation and that's where I'm most comfortable, building community, investing in community and trying to engage with community, is primarily on LinkedIn. Although, I write a letter every week that we distribute called the Celebrations Pulse, that I've shared with our community so many of the things I've learned from you in the last year and a half, Dr. Chloe, and it's been, I can't help but want to share. So that's why we have the Connectivity Council. The Connectivity Council, that you're so good to be a part of, is three of the most amazing, thoughtful teachers and psychologists that I've had the privilege to get to know during the last year, so you're all three COVID buddies. I really feel close and connected to you and to Dr. Willingham and Dr. Everly. Three amazing, wonderful, talented, sharing, caring people. And every time I interact with you, I want to share that. So I do that on LinkedIn and I do it with the seven million subscribers that we have to our Sunday letter. I never try and sell anything to that community, but I celebrate what's going on in the calendar. I talk about what we're feeling, my brother and I, what we're feeling here, what we're going through. And it just started at the beginning of the pandemic and it's grown into be something really important to me and to us, because it helps us to move from thinking about these people who do business with us from time to time, not think of them as customers, but think of them as members of a community.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: A hundred percent!

Jim McCann: And when you do that it changes, you taught me and I've written about it. It was quite a compliment you weren't meant to hear, and those are the best kind. But at dinner last night, sitting around the table after a serious session of barbecuing and my son, Matt, who's my youngest brought up your book, because he was at the house about a month ago and he saw that I had three or four of your books in my home office. And he said, "Is this the book you were talking about?" I said, “yes”. He said, "Do you mind if I grab a copy?" I said, "No, that's why they're here." And so then he recommended it to his brother and sister and so they've all read the book and we had a little conversation about that last night. But for me it's all about creating the community, investing in that, inviting relationship development, and when we formed this Connectivity Council, for me, all my kids will tell you that I overwhelm them with a great article I found and shared with them, in this case, your book. And that's what I do with this Celebrations Pulse. When you and I have a conversation and I get some unbelievably good insight on how to handle something or think about something from you, which is often the case, I want to share it with our community. And so that's why I'm always talking about the three of you, because you're so important to me and to us that I'm not done experiencing that unless I share it with someone else.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Wow! Jim, you are such a gift, truly, in so many ways. And I'm so thankful for this, for what you have shared as well as that wonderful compliment. Of course, as an author, that makes me so happy.

Jim McCann: Every single message from your book, I can't let you go without saying that we talked about it last night at dinner, was about how changing the vocabulary can change the way you think and can change the way you feel and act. And you, teaching your community to take what's going to be natural anxiety, Nervous Energy, and how to understand it, how to bundle it, how to package it and how to use it to a positive, is a game changer for so many people. And to hear my son recount that for the group at dinner last night as the takeaway lesson he learned, I just have to heap thanks on you!

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Jim, you've made my day! You've made my week! Truly. I can't thank you. I can't thank you enough. And I will make sure to drop a sign up link for the Celebrations Pulse newsletter in the show notes, because I'm sure people listening may want to know about the Celebrations Pulse and how they can sign up. So Jim, I won't keep you all day, but I want to thank you so much for your time and for including me in so many different activities, it's been an honor and an opportunity for me in so many ways, and really for Father's Day as well, Jim, you bring a great father energy to so many people even outside of your family where you are an actual father. So I want to thank you for that.

Jim McCann: Dr. Chloe, it's always a treat to spend time with you. You've been an important influence on my life. And I only look forward to more ways we'll get to interact in the future. Who knows? We might even meet in person one day!

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I know we will. We will! I've been known to make an appearance in New York. So I hear the city's coming back. I'm looking forward to that.

Jim McCann: It is indeed. Thank you, Dr. Chloe.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Thanks again. Bye bye.

Jim McCann: Bye bye.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: My goodness! What an incredible conversation. Jim McCann is just one of those people where I often just can't believe that he takes the time to just sit and chat with little old me, but he does. And I'm always thankful for everything he shared, what incredible energy, what incredible insight, what knowledge, what compassion. I hope that you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: If you have comments, etcetera, I hope that you'll put them in the comments section. Or if you want to write a comment, certainly subscribe or share this interview or any of the other ones. Please know how much I do appreciate it. It helps me a lot in the algorithms when I get interactions. So if you're sitting there, which I hope you are, thinking, wow, that was a great conversation, I enjoyed it. Please don't keep it to yourself. Whether it be as simple as clicking the like button or subscribe or share or making any kind of a comment at all, it helps me a lot in the algorithms. So please do go ahead and share if you enjoyed it. And thank you for letting me share this with you. These types of conversations are great to have just one to one, but the chance to actually share them and not have a conversation in a vacuum, but get the chance to push it out and share it with people like you is really a privilege for me. So thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a good rest of the day!

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