Wealth and Power of Women

Episode 21

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Chloe Carmichael and welcome to the High-Functioning Hotspot, where I, as a clinical psychologist, interview some very interesting and successful high-functioning people. Today's guest is Barbara Huson, a very successful author and financial planner. Her father was the "R" in H&R Block. So she grew up with a lot of exposure to money, but not always a lot of knowledge about it.

So I'm really excited to talk with her about her personal story and how she became who she is. Not only somebody who learned how to be really good with money, but who actually became an extremely successful business person and in her own right. So without further ado, here's Barbara Huson.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Hi, Barbara! Thank you so much for joining me today.

Barbara Huson: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. It's really a pleasure Barbara. So as you know, I'm a Psychologist. I work with a lot of high-functioning people, especially in New York where my practice is. We have a lot of really Wall Streeters, entrepreneurs, people that are really into money and really also see a lot of the emotion around money.

So that's why I thought it would be such an interesting thing to hear from you because you're not only obviously an expert about money, but you also think about it from the Psychology side. And I also know a little bit about your very interesting journey. So instead of me saying it, I was wondering if you could just share a little bit of the highlights for people that maybe are not familiar with your work.

Barbara Huson: Sure. So I grew up in a wealthy family, very wealthy family. My father was the "R" of H&R Block. And the only advice he ever gave me about money was “Don't worry”. I thought that was great advice. I didn't understand money. I just wanted to spend it. And of course, “Don't worry” meant there will always be a man to take care of you.

And there always was, there was my father and then my husband, who was a stock broker. So he was perfect, but I found out very early in our marriage that he was a compulsive gambler. And here's the insane part. Over our 15 years that we were married, I continued to let him manage the money. Even though every year I find out many times a year, he was gambling my inheritance away, and I let him manage it because that's how terrified I was and intimidated by anything to do with money.

Finally, after 15 years we got a divorce and I decided money's not my thing. I do not want to deal with money. Well, if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. Then the next year, I got tax bills for over a million dollars, almost 2 million, for back taxes my ex didn’t pay. For illegal deals he got us in. My signature was on everything. I did not have hardly anything, certainly not anywhere near a million. My ex had left the country and my father wouldn't lend me the money. That's when I knew I had to get smart. So I started reading and I started going to classes and I started doing all the things you're supposed to do.

My eyes would glaze over. My brain would fog up and I would just feel stupid, just terminally stupid. But I had three daughters and one was just a baby and I was not going to raise those girls on the street. So I knew I had to get smart. I was committed. And I really believe when you have a commitment, like you make a commitment like a down to your toes, no backdoor, the universe revolves to help you reach your goal.

I was a journalist writing for the San Francisco Business Times and I was hired for a freelance project to interview women who were smart with money. Those interviews changed my life. I not only got smart about money, but I started a whole new career doing financial education for women. And now seven books later, here I am 25 years later.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. I mean that there's so many layers there, Barbara. So as a Psychologist, I hear a lot of stories from people. And I'm just curious, for 15 years your husband was gambling your inheritance away. Was your father in any way aware of that?

Yes, he was. I see you nodding your head. I'm just surprised, if his philosophy was that it was his and your husband's role to be stewards of your money, why do you think he didn't intervene?

Barbara Huson: He did. The way I found out that my husband was gambling is one night I came home from work, and my mother, my father and my husband were sitting in the living room. My two kids were asleep upstairs. They were sitting there, very serious. And my father says to me, “Sit down, Barbara”.

We had found a house we were looking for. I just had my second baby. We were looking for a house and my husband went to my father to borrow money for the house because he had lost almost all my money.

And my father said, “Do you know, you have no money to buy a house?” I panicked, I had no idea. And I went, “Yes, I know’. I had no idea, but I was just so stunned. I was so humiliated. I was so embarrassed. And he started screaming. He said, “Your husband's an addict. He's a gambler”. So that’s the first I heard of it. They walked out of the house that night and nobody ever said another word, not another word for 15 years about that. I honestly don't know why. I honestly don't know why.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah, that's a little confusing. I mean, from your father’s perspective...

Barbara Huson: It's not really, if you realize that my father did not think women should make or manage money, he was adamant, he was of that ilk. He was of that generation. So he thought I was incapable. At one point, years later, I said, “What should I do after my divorce?” He said, “Learn to live on less”. That was his only advice. So it's not really puzzling if you knew my father who was a chauvinist, a total chauvinist. But it was very puzzling because I know he did love me.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Of course, he loved you a hundred percent. I guess I just meant like once your father became aware that your husband was squandering your inheritance, I'm just surprised he didn't schedule a weekly meeting with your husband to go over things. I mean, does that surprise you?

Barbara Huson: No, it doesn't surprise me at all because that's not who he was. But I believe there's a greater picture. I believe the universe had a greater plan for me. That if my father had intervened, if my father had lend me the money, if my father had intervened, if he had done anything, you and I would not be talking today. I would not have had to be doing the work that I'm doing.

I believe God gave me my family and God gave me my husband, and all this other stuff, so I could be doing what I'm here to do.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. That was actually one of my next questions for you and you've kind of answered it. Do you feel that your father made a mistake in refusing to lend you the money? It sounds like the answer is no.

Barbara Huson: Oh no. I've thanked him many times, many, many times before he died, I have thanked him. And I even thanked my ex husband for screwing me over. So really, because look, I got seven books out of it. I got a great career. I'm doing work I'm passionate about. I had one line in my book that my editor, my first book, thought was corny, so I took it out. But I put it in another book, “But in our deepest pain lies our highest purpose”. And the money was always painful for me. Very painful but it became my North Star. It gave me my purpose.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That is so powerful. I'm glad that you decided to override your editor in the second future book at least.

Actually, my book Nervous Energy: Harness the Power of Your Anxiety, and it's my first book from a publisher. I struggled with that a little bit, sometimes getting feedback from the editor for the most part, we were in sync, but of course we're not the same people. So sometimes there'd be things that she thought I should cut.

I was like, "Oh, but it feels important". And I was torn because it's like, "Well, she's the expert", but on the other hand, it's mine so I got tripped up sometimes. How do you handle those choices now you're a veteran on books? How do you make those editorial choices of whether to accommodate or veto the editor?

Barbara Huson: So the first book, which I wrote 20 some years ago, which is still selling, which is amazing. I listened to everything she said. My seventh book, some of the things my editor was saying were really, really good. And some of the things I didn't agree with. So I really learned to go to battle for myself and I don't know, I got more confidence.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. What prompted you in the first place to go from saying, “Okay, I've just got to interview people”. I mean, how did you end up even writing a book? What gave you that idea?

Barbara Huson: The first book, the idea came to me because I was hired for a writing project to interview women who are financially savvy. I turned those interviews into a book.

The second book, my agent called and said, ”You know, women are making more money now than ever before. Why don't you interview them and write a book called Secrets of Six-Figure Women”. And she said that, and I hated the idea. I imagined these snotty, designer-dressed workaholics, leagues above me. Totally intimidating and completely boring to interview. And one of my agents talking about this book, I'm thinking to myself, “Wait a minute, Barbara, if this is what you think of successful women, how will you ever let yourself become one?”

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Wow!

Barbara Huson: [00:10:31] I was a chronic underearner my whole life. I interviewed 154 women who made six and seven figures. I started making six figures before I even finished writing the book.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: How?

Barbara Huson: By doing what they said. I think one of the biggest things I've learned, I'm going to tell you that there were a couple things in there. But if you want to know, I think the thing that got me, the thing that really opened my eyes. So I interviewed these women who made six and seven figures and they were incredibly confident and I expected them to be. But as we got deeper into the interviews, every single one talked about how she struggled with fear. She struggled with self-doubt. 95% of them felt like a fraud and were afraid others were going to find out.

I thought, “Oh my God, that's just like me!” But the difference between them and me is they didn't let the fear stop them. They didn't let the doubt stop them. They didn't let feeling like a fraud stop them. And that's when I decided I can be afraid and I can do it anyway. And so one of the first things I did was raise my prices and it terrified me.

And what I've learned since then, that the key to going to the next level in whether it's making more money or losing more weight, it's always the willingness to be uncomfortable. The willingness to go from what feels comfortable to what seems impossible. And I called it the stretch and I do it because success always lies just outside your comfort zone.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That's very true. Just to kind of be a critical thinker. I have to ask though how do we know if we're getting outside of our comfort zone in a good way, and we're getting ready to do some growing or if we're feeling uncomfortable because something's off and something's just not really right?

Barbara Huson: That's really a good question. For me, it always comes back to fear. I always do what I fear and sometimes it's not the right thing, but more than not, it is. And so just like my kids, I have three daughters in their thirties and forties. And they always call me when they feel stuck or they feel confused or they don't know what to do.

And they always say, “What do I do?” And I always tell them the same thing. And they know I'm always going to tell them the same thing. I always say, ”What are you most scared to do?” And they'll tell me and I'll say, “That's what you need to do”, because I really believe, Joseph Campbell once said “The cave you fear to enter is where your treasure lies”.

I believe that on the other side of fear is where our power lies. So I don't know, I will err on the side of doing what I fear. Now, I also trust my intuition and my intuition says, “ah-ah”. But I've worked hard to really learn to trust my intuition.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. And it's an art. I do think it takes a lot of inner work, which you're obviously doing. So you mentioned your kids, which is wonderful and a lot of high-functioning people and certainly in New York there's always this kind of high class problem that people who have a high net worth have, which is when they're raising kids, that they don't want to raise kids that are entitled, soft, et cetera. But they also don't want to fail to give their kids the advantages that they're able to provide because of their financial resources. So when it comes to kids and money, I'm curious did your kids have summer jobs? And if yes, at what age?

Barbara Huson: Oh my gosh. They have jobs for whenever they could start working, whenever it was legal to work, they worked. But I don't know because my parents raised me in such a way that I never felt entitled, you know? I could never have my own car growing up. I could never go to private schools. So I don't know. It wasn't an issue for me. My kids, one's a farmer, one kid is a nursery school teacher. Another kid is a journalist.

So I don't know. I always told them, after you graduate college, you're on your own. You're on your own, but I'll always pay for your therapy. Cause I'm the one that screwed them up. So I always pay for the therapy, but they worked and supported themselves the whole time.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: There's a couple of clients at my practice whose parents have told them the same thing. Like you're on your own, except when it comes to therapy, we'll help you with that part. But that's really interesting. So your father, who is the "R" in H&R Block, didn't send you to private school. Do you know why?

Barbara Huson: Yeah. He wanted me to not feel entitled, exactly what you were talking about. He wanted to make sure that his children were, that's the best word I can think of, were not entitled, did not have that feeling.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well that's wonderful. It's really great that you did get the chance to thank him for that. So I'm going to ask you another question and feel free to take a pass, but I can't help it. I'm just a very curious person. So you wrote this many amazing books about money and you've been through this incredible journey with it. Do you personally still struggle with any vulnerability with money, whether it's spending or budgeting or saving or any part of money?

Barbara Huson: I would've done so much work on myself. So much work that no. I mean, maybe I'd love to make more money, but I feel really, really good about my ability to manage money. I feel really good. Now, do I manage my money myself? No. I work with a financial advisor. I have a whole team of financial professionals, but I feel really good with all the people on my team. I feel really good about all that I've learned and continue to learn, and no one learns more than a teacher and for 25 years I've been teaching about money. And so I keep learning more and more. I feel really good.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That's awesome. What do you think of Bitcoin?

Barbara Huson: I'm not an early adopter of anything. So I don't understand, like what I learned very early in my relationship with starting to get smart about money is never invest in anything you don't understand. If there are things I don't understand, I don't invest in it. And I can't get my head around Bitcoin. I just can't. So I think it's very fascinating and the people who do, and I know some have made a lot of money, but I don't understand it. So I don’t.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I have to admit, I don't really understand it either. But I think I bought a little bit in there just because it was kind of exciting and I sort of enjoyed watching it. I really don't understand it either to be honest.

But anyway, going back to the Psychology side. With your father raising you, as you said with you described it as a chauvinistic attitude. That's an interesting one because as a woman and as a Psychologist, I work with a lot of women that are interested in dating. My first book was Dr. Chloe's 10 Commandments of Dating. So I can understand that a lot of women, even just maybe some kind of primal evolutionary thing, we can think of men, sometimes on some basic level in terms of a provider and a protector. I don't know a lot of women that want to date a man who makes less than they do.

Whereas I don't really know any men that have a problem dating a woman who makes less than they do. So I guess I'm just curious from your perspective, do you think it's nature, nurture or some combination that kind of creates a situation where women, even if they are quite capable, tend to really appreciate men that are good at money, good at making money, good at managing money, all those types of things. And it's not again to say that women can't do it, but it certainly seems that a lot of women appreciate a man who has big skills in that area. Nature, nurture, somewhere in between.

Barbara Huson: Evolutionary. Evolutionary because our ancestors, their survival depended on a division of labor where the man would go out, do the hunting and gathering, and the woman would take care of the hearth and home.

So I think our brain evolved that that was safe. And of course times have changed, but our brain is often slow to adapt. And so I think that has an effect on it. Now, for me personally, I've been married. I've been with my husband for 12 years and I've always made more money than him, always. But he keeps me safe in the way I need and that he supports me totally. Totally supports me. Loves what I do. And it works for me. It just works.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Right. Well, in your case, Barbara, you're an exception. So I should have put a caveat there, which is that I think most women, except for those who are ultra financially secure, tend to look for a man who has skills in those areas. I actually have definitely seen more situations like the cases I do see where a woman is with a man that's not making as much as she does. Usually the woman herself is seven figures or more, like in terms of her own net worth. So that may be an interesting situation as well. Like if that box of safety, as you said, feels checked. No?

Barbara Huson: I mean, maybe it's the women you see, maybe it's the women in New York. I don't know because I see women all over the world, and there are some that want to marry a rich man. But that comes from their own insecurity and their own issues they're dealing with. And to me, women's difficulties with money are not about money. Women’s difficulties with money are not about money per se, they are about their fear of, or ambivalence about power.

I remember I got this when I was writing my first book, Prince Charming Isn't Coming. And I remember realizing that these women who became savvy really were stepping into their power. I'm going to talk more about that a little bit. But I remember saying to a Psychologist who specialized in financial issues, I remember saying to her, “why are women so afraid of their power?”

And she said to me, “because powerful women have been burned at the stake”. And I think there is something in our collective unconsciousness that is very afraid that if we become too powerful, if we can become too successful, if we become too anything, there will be backlash. There will be consequences. We will be punished.

Now this is not a rational thing. So really what I work with when I work with women is not about money. The problems with money are never about money. There's always something underneath, right? And what I realized is women don't understand power from a feminine perspective. And my definition of a powerful woman is someone who knows who she is, who knows what she wants and expresses that in the world unapologetically.

So essentially our fear of power is our fear of becoming fully who we are. Because in order to become a container that can attract, can maintain, it can grow our wealth. It's who we have to become. And that is powerful, instead of saying no to what we don't want instead of watering ourselves down so we don't make waves.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Right. Definitely. I can see that you are obviously a very powerful woman and coach yourself. My understanding is you actually also do work with private clients individually. I think you mentioned it, is that correct? The only reason I ask is because I'm like seven books, at a certain point, I just think it becomes harder for the public to get one-to-one time with someone like yourself that has such a large following. For me as a Psychologist, I found that there's almost like an energy wall. Like I can only see really a certain number of clients per week and feel like I'm really present. And then, when I was writing my book and things like that as well, it was almost like a surprise to me to discover that I didn't have just unlimited energy to just do everything all the time. So I'm curious from your perspective, Barbara, how many clients a week do you see?

Barbara Huson: Probably around 10 or 12 a week.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Great. Do you feel like there are certain kinds of clients that you just realize kind of right off the bat that you're not going to actually want to take that person on as a client for any reason?

Barbara Huson: Oh, yeah. I am not for everyone. I am definitely not for everyone. So yeah, and that's not fair to take on someone that we're not a good fit. So I have no problem saying it doesn't work or firing them. I have no problem.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That's great. As a Psychologist who's interested in high-functioning people, Barbara, what you're saying is an ultra high-functioning strategy, right? That you have the awareness of when it's not a good fit and that you have the skills to say so.

Barbara Huson: I don't know if it's skills. It's self preservation and it’s like, if it's not fun, I don't want to do it. So if working with someone isn't fun for me or them, I don't want to do it.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: And do you feel like you can tell that like within the first 10 minutes of sitting with someone or does it take awhile?

Barbara Huson: No, not always. Sometimes it takes a few sessions. And I have fired clients, and almost all of them have come back because what happens is they come and they're not ready. Their resistance is too great. The work I do is always getting a person, a woman past her resistance. And sometimes their resistance is just too strong and I acknowledge that and they acknowledge that and I don't want to waste their money. But one of the things that I've just discovered in the past six years has really made a huge difference in my practice and in my work with clients.

As I brought neuroscience into my work and my latest book, which is coming out any day now called Rewire For Wealth, is when I started bringing neuroscience into it because our behavior is controlled by our brain. I mean, I don't need to tell you this. This is just because we're talking, but our brain is molded by our thoughts.

So when I can help people train their mind to rewire their brain for wealth and wellbeing, whatever else they want, it tends to go so much quicker.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That sounds super awesome! And I know everybody listening is probably really going to want to get that book. Would you mind telling us like one or two highlights of how we can rewire our brain for money, happiness and wealth? That sounds awesome.

Barbara Huson: Sure. I'll give you three steps. So it took me a long time to figure this out. So there's three steps to rewiring your brain and I will give you these steps quickly, and then I will explain them. So people come to me because they're having trouble. Something's not working.

And either they spend too much, they make too little, there's all kinds. There's a whole range of problems. It's endless. But basically the problem is with their brain because their brain will only see and will only do what confirms its beliefs. So you must shift those beliefs. And the way to shift those beliefs is to shift the thoughts, because what flows through the mind is what programs the brain.

So here's three steps: Recognize, Reframe, and Respond differently. So recognize any negative thought, recognize a negative thought. I'll give you an example. A while ago, my team had an idea for me to do a certain project and it was a great project, great idea. But I didn't understand it. I had never done anything like this before and it scared me. And I noticed myself saying to them, “No, I don't want to do it”. And then I thought, “Well, wait a minute. Why don't I try rewiring so I can do it”. So they gave me this project. I didn't want to do it. So I've recognized the negative thought and the negative thought was. “I don't have what it takes. I can't do this. I don't have what it takes”.

So the way you start with rewiring is you recognize not with judgment, but with curiosity. “Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought. That I don't have what it takes”. So you recognize with curiosity and then you separate yourself from your thought, because the thought is not true. It's just a thought that you're having. So you say, “I am having a thought about I don't have what it takes”. So you recognized.

And the second step, you reframe. “How can I see this differently? How can I give myself a different message that I can replace this thought with?” So I had it right here. I wrote it down on a little post-it note. I thought, “I can handle this. I can handle this”. So every time I found myself saying, “I don't have what it takes”. I said, “I can handle this”. Did I believe it? No. You don't have to believe the reframe. You do not, but you say something over and over again. And the old neuropathways weakened and the new ones started building.

So I said, “I can handle this" and then I would respond differently. How I wanted to respond by saying, “no, I don't want to do this”. Instead, I sat down and I wrote the script and I wrote the emails and I developed that. And after, I don't know, 10 days a week, two weeks, it started to get fun. It wasn't hard. I had to keep recognizing, reframing and responding differently over and over again and well, it just became normal.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That is awesome, Barbara. I totally am on board with that. It actually really reminds me of a technique in my book, which is called Thought Replacement. And it's very similar, it’s that when you have this kind of negative internal monologue on certain particular topics, little choruses that your mind always wants to sing that as you said, just are not necessarily true and that are in fact maladaptive. Then we think in advance about what exactly we want to replace that thought with. And we force ourselves to say that thought to override the other one.

And as you said, even if it doesn't feel natural, the example I give in the book is, if you had spent 20 years slouching and rounding your shoulders, and then you suddenly just forced yourself to put them back. No, it wouldn't feel natural but that doesn't mean that it's not correct. And so I made that point in the book to tell people exactly what you said, which is that we don't need to just get discouraged or think it's not working or think that we're doing something wrong just because it doesn't feel natural. In fact, sometimes having it not feel natural means you're doing something right.

Barbara Huson: I would say a hundred percent of the time. If it doesn't feel natural, you're doing it right. Because what felt natural is what got you into this predicament in the first place, where you don't want to be. If it doesn't feel natural, that's a sign you're doing it, right?

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yes, exactly. So true. A hundred percent, Barbara. 100%. I'm so excited, Barbara, truly, that we got the chance to talk. My assistant who coordinated this, she actually was reading one of your books and she said, “Wow, Chloe, you have to talk to Barbara because you two just really seem like you have so much in common. And I think you two would have a nice conversation”. And I have to say she's right. So thanks Maura for setting this up!

Barbara Huson: Thanks, Maura. I appreciate it!

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. So Barbara, once again, can you say the name of your book please? And we'll put a link to it in the show notes too

Barbara Huson: [00:32:47] It's called Rewire for Wealth.

And so speaking to the editor. So I had a subtitle that my editor didn't like, so we went around and around and around it. So she got her way. I made up the subtitle but it's not my favorite, I think it's too long. Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I love it. I really loved that. I mean, with my stuff happening in my life, I just feel like I got a lot of financial things that are happening right now. And to be honest, I've always shied away from Math and Finances, it's never really been my strong suit, but I'm actually getting into it.

It's like a weird thing in the last year. I've actually gotten super interested in learning about money, which is again, it's kind of a new thing. I guess because I spent so many years studying Psychology and getting my PhD, I just didn't have any more brain room for anything else. But now I'm really getting into it, Barbara. So I'm definitely going to check out, Rewire for Wealth. What could be better?

Barbara Huson: Oh, Chloe, let me just tell you. You do not have to be good at Math to be great at money. I'm terrible at Math. It's like, that's why God made calculators. You don't have to be good at Math. So I want to put that to sleep right away.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Thank you so much again for joining me today. I've learned a lot and I had a lot of fun.

Barbara Huson: Thank you! Me, too.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Take care. Bye bye.

Wow. What an exciting interview. I'm so thankful for the chance to speak with Barbara Huson and really learn from her. I have to admit it kind of even stirred in me a little bit of some questions or reflections that maybe I have about some thoughts about money and the way that I'm approaching money.

I really like thinking of money as almost like a form of energy. And so we really want to, of course, Nervous Energy, we want to make sure we really maximize the power of all of our energy. And so she'd given me a lot to think about, I hope that she did you as well.

If you want to share anything with me on social media about what you think of the show or Barbara or anything else, just Google me on social media and I'm on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, everywhere or YouTube channel, all kinds of different ways.

And I hope you're also subscribed to my newsletter as well. You can go to drchloe.com/hello if you want to get a summary of all of my links and we'll put them in the show notes for this episode as well. So speaking of this episode, I hope that you'll be able to subscribe if you are interested in catching me on future episodes with more high-functioning people.

So thanks again for watching, listening, or however you're taking this one in and have a good rest of the day.

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